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I've been to all of these places and have lived in Hong Kong for a couple of years before.
I would say Singapore is probably the most enjoyable (very loosely defined and personal) of those - very clean, modern, advanced economy, large amount of cultural and entertainment amenities, independent country. Looks like a great place for children to grow up, high quality of life. I think immigration is the biggest barrier - it's one of the reasons why I'm not there right now as I type! The climate is very personal but I'm not a fan of the winters in Hong Kong/Macau/Taipei, it's not true winter/fall like in North America or Europe with the nice colors and seasonality you get, but kind of like a failed half-summer where it's not warm enough to be enjoyable but cold enough to feel something is different. I'd just rather have summer year round...
Hong Kong would be my second pick for similar reasons, with demerits coming from Chinese government presence/meddling/interference, heavier pollution and overcrowding and just a busier and more congested/chaotic place. Housing I presume would be as vexing in either of these cities.
Would pick Taipei third. Wouldn't really consider Penang or Macau... it's just not "there" as standalone cosmopolitan livable cities yet, just more like a tourist destinations that you go to once or twice (both of which I enjoyed).
svelten I think your sensibilities are pretty much like mine, except for climate. Most of what you say pretty much lines up with my thought process on all of this. Penang and Macau are both in the running because of how practical they are for our situation, but certainly far from what would be my ideal cities.
I've been to all of them, and I personally would choose Taipei. If you want to expand business with mainland China, it's probably not the best place to be. But it's a good balance between costs and being cosmopolitan.
Singapore and Hong Kong are very cosmopolitan, but the costs are just so high. If you live in the other cities, you can visit Hong Kong or Singapore regularly just based on the cost savings you got. If you live in these two cities, just to be able to live in a slightly bigger apartment, it's hard to have any excess funds for a trip to elsewhere. Even a trip to Hong Kong Disneyland or to Universal Studios Singapore seems too excessive. Unless you make lots of money to be considered wealthy by Hong Kong or Singapore standards, most middle class Hong Kongers or Singaporeans I know make regular trips to Shenzhen or Johor Bahru to buy cheaper things or avail of cheaper services, and cannot afford to go travel elsewhere.
I also personally would not consider Singapore, because aside from the cost, you are basically committing your sons to serve in the national military service in exchange for Singapore PR status (which is not difficult to obtain as long as you are willing to make that commitment). Also, it's virtually impossible to "immerse" yourself in a Chinese-speaking environment in Singapore.
Penang is not exactly the best place to immerse in Mandarin or Cantonese either. Undoubtedly, you will get exposed to lots of Hokkien, Malay and English there too. It's cheap to live there though, and with the savings you got, it's fairly easy to go to visit any of the other cities mentioned in the poll on a regular basis.
Macau is just so small... if you are not into casinos, the possible places to go within Macau will become even smaller. I'll probably end up in either Hong Kong or Zhuhai every weekend if I am in Macau.
I also personally would not consider Singapore, because aside from the cost, you are basically committing your sons to serve in the national military service in exchange for Singapore PR status (which is not difficult to obtain as long as you are willing to make that commitment).
Glad you brought this up. I thought about asking this earlier but decided it was an unnecessary detail for now. If we were to live in Singapore temporarily on some VISA program while our kids are elementary school age, that wouldn't commit them to service in the future would it? Only if we stay long term and apply for PR?
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Originally Posted by GoldenTiger
Also, it's virtually impossible to "immerse" yourself in a Chinese-speaking environment in Singapore.
Penang is not exactly the best place to immerse in Mandarin or Cantonese either. Undoubtedly, you will get exposed to lots of Hokkien, Malay and English there too. It's cheap to live there though, and with the savings you got, it's fairly easy to go to visit any of the other cities mentioned in the poll on a regular basis.
Macau is just so small... if you are not into casinos, the possible places to go within Macau will become even smaller. I'll probably end up in either Hong Kong or Zhuhai every weekend if I am in Macau.
Yeah I can definitely see this. As I said to another poster, I guess immersion for me is acceptable if it's just for a period of time in school. But it is something to think about...if I seriously want true immersion, especially for myself as well (to improve my own Mandarin and Cantonese) then Singapore and Penang would not be adequate. And Macau is definitely small and that is a concern. I too would expect to be going to Hong Kong multiple times a week.
It all depends on if you earn a living there or retiring there with loads of money.
Earn a living -- Singapore/Hong Kong
There are still quite a lot of opportunities for non-Chinese speakers. For example, there are over 20,000 French expatriates in Hong Kong and the French expatriate population grows by 5% annually. But of course, both cities can be outrageously expensive -- even more expensive than NYC or Tokyo depending on the life style.
Retiring -- Penang/Taipei
Penang is very cheap especially with the devalued Ringgit. In YouTube, there is video on Shanghaiese lady saving money by retiring in Penang. Taipei is also quite inexpensive and it is the more friendly among the above five.
Least preferred -- Macau
Macau is very very crowded and it is even more expensive than HK, i.e. dining out. Like Vegas, the only thing relatively cheap is the buffet in casino.
I think the OP refers to the preferred choice for Chinese speakers since they can get around by speaking Chinese in all five cities.
I'm a permanent resident of Taiwan and divide my time between Taiwan and Hokkaido. Buying a decent family sized apartment in a good area of Taipei is extremely expensive. Average around a million U.S.D. Rents though are much cheaper as sales prices and rental rates are out of whack. Still it won't be easy to find a good rental near any semblance of green space for the kids to play in.
Another problem is schooling. By the time your children reach middle school -- unless they attend a very expensive international school with long waiting list -- they'll be studying night and day just to keep up.
Air pollution is a problem too. Taiwan is phasing out nuclear power and replacing it with coal fired power plants. The coal fired power plant in Taichung, for example, is the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide.
I got around these problems in that I've owned an apartment in Taipei for years so I got in early enough and I don't have any kids in local schools now. I'm also only in Taipei half the year so don't have to breathe fumes all the time.
Lastly wages are very low so if you end up being a wage slave you'll perpetually struggle to save and get ahead.
Taiwan has many pluses though which keep me here but the minuses above are deal breakers if you can't find some way around them.
It all depends on if you earn a living there or retiring there with loads of money.
Thanks for your reply. We run multiple remote businesses so for the most part our income is not tied to our location. For my wife's newest business, a portion of the income will likely be affected by where we locate, so indeed Singapore and Hong Kong, where there are more large businesses, greater wealth, and a larger startup community will be advantageous. But it is only a portion, perhaps only a small portion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
Macau is very very crowded and it is even more expensive than HK, i.e. dining out. Like Vegas, the only thing relatively cheap is the buffet in casino.
Yeah at the Michelin restaurants in the casinos. Actually you are right, a lot of the popular restaurants throughout town are pricey. But there are plenty of cheap places in Macau as well, where the locals mostly eat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
I think the OP refers to the preferred choice for Chinese speakers since they can get around by speaking Chinese in all five cities.
It's mainly wanting my kids to study in a Chinese language school, which would be available in all five cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlete
I'm a permanent resident of Taiwan and divide my time between Taiwan and Hokkaido. Buying a decent family sized apartment in a good area of Taipei is extremely expensive. Average around a million U.S.D. Rents though are much cheaper as sales prices and rental rates are out of whack. Still it won't be easy to find a good rental near any semblance of green space for the kids to play in.
Another problem is schooling. By the time your children reach middle school -- unless they attend a very expensive international school with long waiting list -- they'll be studying night and day just to keep up.
Air pollution is a problem too. Taiwan is phasing out nuclear power and replacing it with coal fired power plants. The coal fired power plant in Taichung, for example, is the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide.
I got around these problems in that I've owned an apartment in Taipei for years so I got in early enough and I don't have any kids in local schools now. I'm also only in Taipei half the year so don't have to breathe fumes all the time.
Lastly wages are very low so if you end up being a wage slave you'll perpetually struggle to save and get ahead.
Taiwan has many pluses though which keep me here but the minuses above are deal breakers if you can't find some way around them.
Mathlete, I really appreciate your insight! There is a good chance we would have housing sorted already if we choose Taipei. (rent from a relative) We may very well regret asking for it, but actually that is something we want...the rigors of Chinese schooling...for our kids. It's only for a few years and while they are quite young, but we want them to experience that first before returning to American schools. My wife went through that and coming to school in America in 8th grade was a breeze for her (except for the language barrier as she spoke no english at first)
Low wages in the workforce wouldn't really affect us for the most part. Breathing fumes doesn't seem like a good idea but for just a few years I guess that mitigates the effect.
Glad you brought this up. I thought about asking this earlier but decided it was an unnecessary detail for now. If we were to live in Singapore temporarily on some VISA program while our kids are elementary school age, that wouldn't commit them to service in the future would it? Only if we stay long term and apply for PR?
Yeah I can definitely see this. As I said to another poster, I guess immersion for me is acceptable if it's just for a period of time in school. But it is something to think about...if I seriously want true immersion, especially for myself as well (to improve my own Mandarin and Cantonese) then Singapore and Penang would not be adequate. And Macau is definitely small and that is a concern. I too would expect to be going to Hong Kong multiple times a week.
If you're in Singapore on some kind of non-PR visa, then no need to worry about national service. Singapore makes it enticing to apply for PR though for those who qualify, as without PR status, living there could make it even more expensive. There are restrictions on which schools your kids can go to, which HDB flat you can buy/rent, etc. based on whether you are a Singaporean citizen, PR or non-PR. Singapore requires boys who are citizens or PR, 13 years or older to have an exit permit to travel abroad. So once they get to that age, they are required to serve in the military in the future. It will be too late to renounce citizenship or PR status at that age. This has recently come to the news as Kevin Kwan, author of Crazy Rich Asians, is considered an NS defaulter even if he left Singapore at age 11. Not sure when he applied to renounce his citizenship, but the Singaporean government will not allow it. He risks being arrested if ever he sets foot in Singapore. Even transiting in Singapore is risky for him.
I'm a permanent resident of Taiwan and divide my time between Taiwan and Hokkaido. Buying a decent family sized apartment in a good area of Taipei is extremely expensive. Average around a million U.S.D. Rents though are much cheaper as sales prices and rental rates are out of whack. Still it won't be easy to find a good rental near any semblance of green space for the kids to play in.
First of all, the OP is not looking to buy anything. And your "average around a million USD" is absolutely laughable.
Secondly, his other candidates (except Penang) have even more skewed and extreme housing markets. Hong Kong's property prices for example are the same number ... except it's in HKD. If he wants a decent family sized apartment in a good area of Singapore or Hong Kong he would need multiple times amount the money.
Quote:
Another problem is schooling. By the time your children reach middle school -- unless they attend a very expensive international school with long waiting list -- they'll be studying night and day just to keep up.
He did not say his children would stay that long, and middle school is fine. It's only really tough in high school.
Also, the situation is completely the same or worse in Hong Kong and Singapore for children's education.
Quote:
Air pollution is a problem too. Taiwan is phasing out nuclear power and replacing it with coal fired power plants. The coal fired power plant in Taichung, for example, is the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide.
I got around these problems in that I've owned an apartment in Taipei for years so I got in early enough and I don't have any kids in local schools now. I'm also only in Taipei half the year so don't have to breathe fumes all the time.
Your information is completely inaccurate.
First of all, Taiwan is NOT phasing out nuclear power and replacing it with coal fire power. The proposals of new coal power plant were shut down last year.
Secondly, on the air pollution:
Average yearly PM 2.5 mg/m3 (2018):
Seoul - 23.3
Macau - 21.2
Hong Kong - 20.2
Paris - 15.6 Taipei - 14.9
Singapore - 14.8
Tokyo - 13.1
Taipei is pretty much the best deal he can get if he doesn't want to breathe fumes.
Quote:
Lastly wages are very low so if you end up being a wage slave you'll perpetually struggle to save and get ahead.
First of all, OP is not looking for a job.
Secondly, if you are not on expat package, you would be just as much of a wage slave perpetually struggling to save and get ahead in Singapore, Hong Kong and Macau (who even works in Macau nowadays except in casinos?), if not more.
Maybe you should read his original post again.
Last edited by Greysholic; 03-13-2019 at 05:56 AM..
First of all, the OP is not looking to buy anything. And your "average around a million USD" is absolutely laughable. . . .
Do you live in Taipei? I've lived in Taipei since 1998 and have bought, sold and rented several properties there in Yonghe, Junghe, Wugu, Dazhi, Da'an and Xizhi. Anyone who knows anything about property prices in Taipei and New Taipei City knows that a decent 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment is in the 30 million NTD range.
"Coal-fired power generation in Taiwan will remain key to the county's economic plans, promoting the use of ultra-supercritical technology to reduce emissions, the Ministry of Economic Affairs said Thursday. In the medium and long term, the Ministry of Economic Affairs has accelerated the promotion of coal-fired power plants, and requires the development of new or expanded power plants to adopt the best available technology," the ministry said."
-- Nov. 2018
As for the future of nuclear power in Taiwan: "The 2016 election was won by a government with stated policies that included phasing out nuclear power generation. A referendum in 2018 voted to retain nuclear power, however in January 2019 the government stated that there would be no life-extensions for existing plants or restarts to building nuclear power plants."
Last edited by mathlete; 03-13-2019 at 11:48 AM..
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