Where to live? (crime, life, cost, country)

[projectmaximus]

This is a bit early, but even if it turns out to be a 4 or 5 year saga I guess I might as well share it with CD. I spend a lot of time thinking about it anyway lol. So just want to hear CD's opinions as well as some nuances of life in Asia that I may not have considered.

My family of four plans to move to Asia in a few years, for a few years. We want to expose ourselves to a new culture, immerse our young children in a Chinese-speaking environment (Mandarin or Cantonese), and spend some time around friends and relatives in that region. We run our own businesses and should have no issues continuing to work from an Asian outpost (in fact it will likely be beneficial to our growth and development in the Asian markets) Our preferences are cosmopolitan, urban living. We should be able to afford a decent lifestyle in a pricey market, but we are not wealthy so certainly a low COL is attractive.

Here is our list of five cities in consideration and some brief detail about each one:

1) Singapore - Right now tops the list because it hits everything we want in a city. However it is a bit expensive, the climate is the least desirable, and immigration appears to be the most challenging.

2) Penang - A close second. It would be a compromise as far as "cosmopolitan, urban living" goes but it seems we could live in relative luxury WHILE saving money! Also, my closest relatives in Asia reside in Penang, it is my family's hometown and I spent many many summer months growing up there so I feel the most personal connection. Climate is again far from ideal and immigration options are just ok.

3) Macau - This is my wife's hometown and due to her PR status, the rest of the family is guaranteed temporary residency. We also already have a nice, cheap place to live so in some ways it seems like a perfect fit. It isnt quite what I would call a cosmopolitan environment, but I think it's a slight step up from Penang and having HK right next door (not to mention the entire Pearl River Delta region) offers a ton of amenities close by. A lot of my wife's family and friends too.

4) Hong Kong - Like Singapore, it has everything we would want in a temporary home as well as a decent climate. Also lots of friends and family nearby. But it is probably the most expensive option overall. Immigration isn't very clear but it seems we would stand a good chance of being granted Visas under the QMAS.

5) Taipei - This one was pretty ideal initially because it intersects affordability with a fairly cosmopolitan city atmosphere. And we have a small number of friends who live here or are in and out regularly. However, the closest friends likely will have moved in the next few years and it appears my dear aunt will be retiring and leaving soon as well. Immigration is also a bit unclear, especially since my aunt won't be there (she runs a successful small business and would help me if she knew)

Any thoughts on details I don't know about, or other places to consider? I used to have the door completely shut on ever living in PRC, but now I've loosened up a bit. Not that I want to live there, but I'm no longer vehemently opposed to it.

[Dangerous-Boy]

taipei

[Urban Peasant]

Second Taipei. A decade or two ago, I would have said Hong Kong as it was then very welcoming to all Westerners and the blend of East meets West that was decades in the making would have made it most comfortable to experience. Nowadays both HK and Macau are too expensive and too crowded, the political and socio-cultural heritage is changing, and Americans of all ethnicities are increasingly less welcome. Hong Kong is also increasingly polluted and what relatives tell me, crime is on the rise. It's really too bad because I love Hong Kong and to a lesser extent, Macau. I don't know enough about Penang except that even if a lot of Chinese live there, it being in Malaysia might mean your family won't get as direct an authentic Chinese experience as the other places on your list.

[cebuan]

I predict "Other" will be the clear winner.

[Greysholic]

Originally Posted by projectmaximus

immerse our young children in a Chinese-speaking environment (Mandarin or Cantonese)

If that's your objective, duck Singapore out of your options first. It's an English-speaking country nowdays.

[projectmaximus]

That's interesting. I've always said Taipei was my top choice if I had lived in Asia while I was single. I do really love that city. But it's just not as practical or appealing now for our family as a whole. I don't know, maybe we will reconsider. Will be visiting each of these cities for a week this summer.

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

I don't know enough about Penang except that even if a lot of Chinese live there, it being in Malaysia might mean your family won't get as direct an authentic Chinese experience as the other places on your list.

Penang is majority Chinese (actually the entire state no longer is apparently, but the island and core cities still are). Still you would have a point that it's not "authentically Chinese" but more of a bastardized hybrid version, but then again that is my family's version and my family's history so I guess I am ok with it.

Originally Posted by cebuan

I predict "Other" will be the clear winner.

Why is that?

Originally Posted by Greysholic

If that's your objective, duck Singapore out of your options first. It's an English-speaking country nowdays.

You make a very fair point. In my mind the Chinese environment would be Chinese school, not necessarily all-encompassing...but still this is a legitimate factor to consider. Same issue would apply with Penang...it's fairly Anglicized and they would need to be in Chinese school.

[JakeinChina]

As an expat in Asia for 18 years with a family, I would suggest Mainland China, specifically Shenzhen, Guangzhou or Shanghai. Here are my reasons, given your personal situation.


All of the cities you polled are not really that Chinese. I assume you want your kids to learn or practice their spoken Mandarin and written Chinese. Living in Hong Kong, Macao or Singapore they will probably just speak English for the most part. Also, you are only living there for a couple of years, and every city (except maybe Penang) is very expensive to live in. Wouldn't you want a better budget and lower COL each month?


From a business perspective, you would learn a great deal about the Mainland market (the market with the most growth potential) by living in China.


The only hurdles I see for the move are visas and schools. International schools are big bucks in every city you mentioned above. My daughter attends an international school in China and it costs us 22k USD annually, and that's for kindergarten.


My second choice besides the three Mainland Cities I suggested above, would be Taipei, because they speak Mandarin, and you could live outside of the city center and the rent is somewhat reasonable. Taiwan also have other cities that are very livable like TaiZhong or Tainan and its cheaper then Taipei.


Singapore would probably be the last city on my list....lol

[Dangerous-Boy]

but singapore has spicy chili crab and there's less chance they will detain you on exit

[projectmaximus]

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

As an expat in Asia for 18 years with a family, I would suggest Mainland China, specifically Shenzhen, Guangzhou or Shanghai. Here are my reasons, given your personal situation.

As always, much appreciation for your insight, Jake!

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

All of the cities you polled are not really that Chinese. I assume you want your kids to learn or practice their spoken Mandarin and written Chinese. Living in Hong Kong, Macao or Singapore they will probably just speak English for the most part.

I have spent enough time in Macao and visited the school they would attend to know there is no way they would get by without speaking Cantonese. I know for QOL I will be forced to improve my Cantonese ability greatly, unless I spend all my time with expats. I do believe the same would be true for HK...it is probably more about the environment we create for them and in HK our circles are all Cantonese and our neighborhoods are in Kowloon.

What you warn about may be far more applicable in Singapore and Penang...however I do think having them in Chinese school will be enough for what we are wanting to get out of them.

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

AAlso, you are only living there for a couple of years, and every city (except maybe Penang) is very expensive to live in. Wouldn't you want a better budget and lower COL each month?

This is the issue that we are struggling to decide...Penang would be a low cost option (it is definitely not expensive), but it is a major sacrifice in terms of urban landscape and amenities. I think Taipei is a great compromise especially if one has a convenient housing solution...which we could have if we decide on that. Taichung and Tainan may be a bit small...might as well go with Penang at that point But yeah, appreciate those suggestions!

I guess IF Shenzhen, Guangzhou or Shanghai (presumably not the last one though) offer a decent value proposition while still providing the major cosmopolitan vibe and amenities then perhaps they deserve a long hard look. Shanghai is my favorite city in China. I have only traveled through Shenzhen and never been to Guangzhou. We may take a day trip up that way this summer. Our friend keeps pushing for Zhuhai...he says we will be able to get free office space from the govt to run our businesses (although honestly not sure how that's much of a benefit for us).

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

The only hurdles I see for the move are visas and schools. International schools are big bucks in every city you mentioned above. My daughter attends an international school in China and it costs us 22k USD annually, and that's for kindergarten.

This seems prohibitive to me. Is this in Guangzhou? If we have to pay 44k USD for our two kids to attend school, then without a doubt Macao would be a better option. The 44k savings would make up for any shortcomings lol. Even in Penang we would most likely be using "free" public schools (just pay for books and other supplies) but the private school options are a third of the price. For any city we choose actually we would lean towards public school, but of course immigration rules and/or specific circumstance suggests we keep all options open.

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

Singapore would probably be the last city on my list....lol

Fair enough haha. It is a close call for us so all these options and others are viable. But I do think you and I have slightly different desires out of our home cities...eg, if we went to Spain we would 99% likely be in Madrid or Barcelona. It would take very specific unforeseen circumstances or an eye-opening experience to consider any smaller city.

[Greysholic]

Originally Posted by JakeinChina

Also, you are only living there for a couple of years, and every city (except maybe Penang) is very expensive to live in. Wouldn't you want a better budget and lower COL each month?

Taipei is not expensive at all coming from the US.