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Statistically, are their more agnostics than atheists?
They are two distinct categories, so it is hard to compare. There are agnostic atheists and agnostic theists (as well as gnostic atheists and gnostic theists).
this brings up an important point. If you are not concerned about what happens after death, then the entire point of Christianity, Jesus, forgiveness, sin, or whatever, is also pointless.
There are those people to whom the thought of eternal nothingness is terrifying.
This is one reason I can no longer be a Christian. Death and oblivion mean nothing to me. It's merely cessation. It can hold no terror for me because I will not be conscious of it.
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I don't know if ALL major religions teach some sort of continuation, but for the Christians that feel this way, there is the necessity of believing that Jesus was crucified.
That is fine for them on their path. I, personally, would not want to live forever in either a heaven or a hell. To be honest they both sound like pretty boring places.
As for "Pascal's Wager," I consider it to be just about the most cynical, self-serving and insincere reason for calling yourself a Christian that exists. If: 1) I am wrong about the afterlife; and 2) I have lived a good and moral life; 3); and 3) the God you believe in chooses to send me to eternal punishment because I did not believe in Him, then I would submit to you that He is a God unworthy of worship because He is an unjust God. He is the kind of God who would punish Ghandi and the Dalai Lama for eternity because they weren't members of the right sect, and reward Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini because they were baptized Roman Catholics.
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Native Americans traditional beliefs are closely linked to various things of Nature such as Father Sun, The Spirt of the Mountain or Mother Moon. Old Indian traditions also value the spirits of the animals. Christians usually don't like to admit that animals might have spirits.
Christians also don't like to admit how many of their cherished religious doctrines are "borrowed" from various pagan traditions. ...
Convenient? Hardly. Look at how much scorn is given to those of us who believe in this silly fairy tail of a "God".
Well, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I know a FEW non-believers who act that way but the VAST majority of us are really fairly polite people. We're also mature enough to understand that freedom of non-belief for us requires that we acknowledge freedom of belief for others.
Well, I'm really sorry you feel that way. I know a FEW non-believers who act that way but the VAST majority of us are really fairly polite people. We're also mature enough to understand that freedom of non-belief for us requires that we acknowledge freedom of belief for others.
This is true for you and for others, ninewands, and for that I am thankful. But just as there are jerk-Christians out there, there are jerk-athiests as well who love to show their disdain for us Holy Rollers.
Well I'm not Jazzed but here's what I think, as a Christian.
It is EASIER to live life as an athiest because you only have to do what you feel is right, within societal bounderies. Christians must live according to what God says is right,
... but before an atheist can do what he (generic masculine, not sexist masculine) feels is right, he must DECIDE for himself what IS right. This is considerably more difficult than consulting a set of rules laid down by an authority figure. With freedom comes responsibility. Not to be heaping scorn or ridiculing Christianity, but "the Devil made me do it" doesn't get an atheist off the hook for his mistakes because we don't believe in that him either.
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and to believe in Christianity means you believe in consequences after death, positive or negative. The negative aspect puts a sort of pressure on Christians to do what is right. So in this sense, being an athiest is easier.
The pressure on an atheist to do right is the pressure of being 100% responsible for your own acts 100% of the time. Think about it. NO guidance except your own conscience. No authority figure to say, "do this ... don't do that." I would submit that it takes a great deal more moral maturity to live a moral life as an atheist than it does as a Christian.
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However, to believe (as most athiests do) that when we die that is it...well, to me, and I assume to Jazzed as well, that is just about the saddest thought ever.
Not me, but then, I don't fear extinction.
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The thought of someday not existing, coupled with never seeing loved ones again...gosh, how hopeless, IMO.
So you have to live your life in a way that makes the most of it. I do not want to live forever. I do not want to hobble into my grave regreting that there was something missing from my life. I want to slide into the grave (crematorium, actually) with smoke boiling from the soles of my shoes as I screech to a halt and have my last words be, "WOW!, what a ride!"
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Also, there is so much more to being a Christian than what you athiests (sorry for the polarizing term) are seeing. To be a Christian begins a process of spiritual development that has the potential of being unequalled by anything this world has to offer. So, to us, you are all missing out on such a joyous and important part of the human development.
... but before an atheist can do what he (generic masculine, not sexist masculine) feels is right, he must DECIDE for himself what IS right. This is considerably more difficult than consulting a set of rules laid down by an authority figure. With freedom comes responsibility. Not to be heaping scorn or ridiculing Christianity, but "the Devil made me do it" doesn't get an atheist off the hook for his mistakes because we don't believe in that him either.
Yes, but there is no eternal punishment awaiting you if you make the wrong decision.
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Originally Posted by ninewands
... The pressure on an atheist to do right is the pressure of being 100% responsible for your own acts 100% of the time. Think about it. NO guidance except your own conscience. No authority figure to say, "do this ... don't do that." I would submit that it takes a great deal more moral maturity to live a moral life as an atheist than it does as a Christian.
I don't believe that being a Christian makes me any less responsible for my own actions at all. In fact more so, because we have been told to be salt and light to the world, and it is quite serious if we are responsible for causing someone else to stumble.
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Originally Posted by ninewands
... Not me, but then, I don't fear extinction.
Blows my mind, but to each his own.
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Originally Posted by ninewands
... So you have to live your life in a way that makes the most of it. I do not want to live forever. I do not want to hobble into my grave regreting that there was something missing from my life. I want to slide into the grave (crematorium, actually) with smoke boiling from the soles of my shoes as I screech to a halt and have my last words be, "WOW!, what a ride!"
Who wants to live forever in this body? I believe we are all spirits who LIVE IN a body. I don't want my spirit--the essense of who Jeff is--to cease existense.
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Originally Posted by ninewands
... Been there, done that, and I was miserable.
Then you haven't really been there and done that. You have been somewhere and done something in the name of Christ, which I did for years, and yes, it's a miserable existance.
But that is NOT the real thing. It probably angers you for me to say it, but misery does not come from a true born-again experience.
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I believe we are all spirits who LIVE IN a body. I don't want my spirit--the essense of who Jeff is--to cease existense.
