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So, what i hear you saying is : The premise of an atheist is that there IS zero evidence for a personal theistic Creator because the atheist cant see a Creator ? Would this also hold true for electricity running across his house wiring which cant be seen ?
This misses the point. For an omnipotent God to exist, everything else we know about science must be wrong.
There is not a claim more contradictory to the world of science then the claim of omnipotence. Because even the idea of a leprachaun violates less of the known laws of nature than an omnipotent being.
So the claim of omnipotence is the least likely claim one can possible make. If one can believe that is possible, then they are subject to believing anything is possible.
I know the God of Abraham doesn't exist for the exact same reasons and with the exact same certainty that you know the God of Zeus doesn't exist.
Right now, we are just talking about a personal theistic Creator existing or not ; what he is like as Creator can be discussed in a new thread .
So based on your assertion, in order for you to KNOW with all certainty as you said..that a personal theistic Creator doesnt exist .... would require you to explore the entire physical universe to verify that this Creator isnt there , plus, it would require you to be all knowing and all powerful --- you would need to have the same attributes as the Creator whom you are certain doesnt exist and are trying to refute . Have you taken this cosmic trip anytime in your life that leads you , with ALL absolute certainty, that there isnt a supernatural Source for our miraculous Universes presence ? If you havent or cant, then you cant be a true atheist because you havent absolutely ruled this out ; it would mean you are , at a minimum, an agnostic .
No, we can deduce that electric wiring runs across a house. Also, most of us have seen a house being built and know the wires are there. Plus, people put them there. Fires started because of them. People are electrocuted because of them. Your ignorance can be cured simply by looking up the definition of "evidence".
Are you some kind of expert at creating terrible analogies?
Your logic sucks. Zero evidence for a creator merely means zero evidence for a creator. When you see things and automatically assume some intelligent life form created them, you're making a non-natural leap that disregards logic.
Cosmology has plenty of theories for how life could form through the laws of physics bringing toether matter and gases, and creating self-perpetuating proteins under the right conditions. Just because we don't have a definitiive answer yet doesn't mean the only true answer is "God did it." Atheists are merely smart enough to reserve judgment and be satisfied with not having a conclusion. Yet.
Your basketball/bicycle analogy is terrible. Let me guess, you're now going to use the human eye to explain why evolution is untrue. Do you know how many times that's been debunked in every lecture hall in America?
You can observe the effects of electricity running across a wire by its end result...but you 'cant' (or dont want to) observe all thats around you which pales in comparison to the meager complexity of electricity ? Well, that does sound rather motive-driven if i may say so.
In any case, lets get back to the discussion on atheism leading to agnosticism which is the original post . You are free to start a new thread on trying to defame theism if you like .
Right now, we are just talking about a personal theistic Creator existing or not ; what he is like as Creator can be discussed in a new thread .
So based on your assertion, in order for you to KNOW with all certainty as you said..that a personal theistic Creator doesnt exist .... would require you to explore the entire physical universe to verify that this Creator isnt there , plus, it would require you to be all knowing and all powerful --- you would need to have the same attributes as the Creator whom you are certain doesnt exist and are trying to refute . Have you taken this cosmic trip anytime in your life that leads you , with ALL absolute certainty, that there isnt a supernatural Source for our miraculous Universes presence ? If you havent or cant, then you cant be a true atheist because you havent absolutely ruled this out ; it would mean you are , at a minimum, an agnostic .
As I pointed out, there is no requirement of absolute knowledge, in the metaphysical sense.
In ordinary conversation, can you say you "know" there is a place called Moscow, Russia? Yes, I bet you can - even while acknowledging the metaphysical possibility that you are mistaken.
I know there is no God like you know there is a city called Moscow. Neither of these are in the absolute sense, only in the everyday sense.
What I see happening is theist playing a tricky semantic game. They try to say, "well, you don't KNOW there is no God," implying that we don't know in the ordinary sense of the word.
But by your definition, you must agnostic as well. Because you can not create a scenario underwhich it is absolutely necessary that an omnipotent God exists.
I think before you began this thread you should have at least known what the term atheist means. Most atheists do not believe that a deity exists. They do not say that they know for certain that a deity does not exist, because such a thing cannot be proven one way or another.
I have made the full journey from theist to agnostic and finally arrived where I am now as an atheist. God belief make no sense to me at all, except as a fanciful myth.
I think before you began this thread you should have at least known what the term atheist means. Most atheists do not believe that a deity exists. They do not say that they know for certain that a deity does not exist, because such a thing cannot be proven one way or another.
I have made the full journey from theist to agnostic and finally arrived where I am now as an atheist. God belief make no sense to me at all, except as a fanciful myth.
I agree with what you are saying here, that is how most atheist use the term.
I use it differently because I think many of us know for certain, but get caught up in a semantic game that plays into the theist hands.
I know for certain that an invisible elephant is not in my pocket. If I can make that claim, then surely I can make the claim that I know for certain that an omnipotent God does not exist - because the second claim would be even more far fetched than the first. After all, an omnipotent God could come in the form of two invisible elephants and fit neatly in my pocket if he chooses. Given that, the possibility of an ominpotent God is less far likely than the possibility of an invisible elephant in my pocket.
As I pointed out, there is no requirement of absolute knowledge, in the metaphysical sense.
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Then you self refute yourself since you said you absolutely and with all certainty KNOW that God doesnt exist. How can you proclaim this if you are without absolute knowledge ?
No, in fact my atheism has strengthened, primarily due to these threads and the absolute delusional insanity I see reflected in the posts of many in the R&P and C areas.
Bible thumpers, sidewalk preachers, the jerks that ask me as a complete stranger what church I go to, etc. and politicians playing the god card to get elected or garner support from the ignorant for their agenda have always annoyed me as their motive is so obvious, yet is oblivious to many because religion was evoked.
I have always known that religion is a negative force and a clear and present danger to the future of mankind........... Now seeing some people express their views in these forums is absolutely terrifying. In the real world I deliberately avoid associating with these type, in that I don't go to church, don't associate with those that wear their religion on their sleeve, etc.. My thoughts are; "My god, people are actually that stupid", for as a life long atheist, I typically dismissed these people or simply ignored those of their ilk. Now that I have paid more attention, frankly it's quite disturbing, clarifies the danger posed to society and convinced me 110% gods and religions are purely the delusions of man, used to control the gullible by some rather unscrupulous characters.
One such just used the religion based hatred of homosexual to get an issue on the NC ballot to write that hatred into the state constitution by voting on an amendemt to ban gay marriage. The laws on the books already don't permit it, but this god bigot wants to make a statement by including his ignorance based hatred into the the state constitution, and the bleating sheep of religion will just tag along, without thought, without reason, just their stupidity based bias.
Last edited by Asheville Native; 09-14-2011 at 12:51 PM..
Then you self refute yourself since you said you absolutely and with all certainty KNOW that God doesnt exist. How can you proclaim this if you are without absolute knowledge ?
I think you have misread.
I never said I knew absolutely, for I don't know anything absolutely. I never used the words "all certainty" - though I did say that I was certain just like I'm certain there's not an elephant in my pocket.
In every case, I was very careful to state that I don't have absolute knowledge that a God doesn't exist, and I will now add to that and say that I don't have absolute knowledge that I have a wife and 2 kids. But I am certain of those two facts, just like I am certain there is no God.
Time for me to ask a question: Do you have absolute certainty that an omnipotent God currently DOES exist, or are you only certain in the ordinary sense of the word? Why?
No, in fact my atheism has strengthened, primarily due to these threads and the absolute delusional insanity I see reflected in the posts of many in the R&P and C areas.
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How can you KNOW for sure as in 100% certainty, if you havent covered 100% of the universe to be sure ? You cant fully know unless you are capable of at least doing this much, so....perhaps you arent WILLING to consider the possibility of a personal theistic Creator for our scentifically proven and measurable personal universe (?) . Why wouldnt someone be willing ? I had my motives as a once proclaimed atheist, and im wondering if your true motives are the same as mine was.
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