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You can observe the effects of electricity running across a wire by its end result...but you 'cant' (or dont want to) observe all thats around you which pales in comparison to the meager complexity of electricity ?
I'd be happy to perform tests on a creator similar to the tests we can do with electricity. Please ask him to show up in my lab this afternoon and we'll see how well he does compared to the real forces of nature.
It isn't about knowing 100 percent. It's about knowing enough.
I know enough to believe that Australia is actually there, and not a fabrication to play tricks on me. Similarly, I know enough, or enough for my own personal thought processes, to know there isn't a god.
But I haven't been to Australia, so I guess I could be wrong.
Atheism presupposes total knowledge . Perhaps you have enough knowledge from being able to examine the complexity in your human body, earth, solar system, etc... to determine that things like this dont arise by blind chance ....but you dont care to publicly admit it ? If this is the case, then that surely is your perogative .
I'd be happy to perform tests on a creator similar to the tests we can do with electricity. Please ask him to show up in my lab this afternoon and we'll see how well he does compared to the real forces of nature.
Its the real forces , physics laws, precise mathematical laws, etc that sustain our cosmos/earth/us ... that we need to compare to atheistic Naturalism . How did all of these come about, and, how come they are infinitely fine tuned and constant ? How come it doesnt appear that we live in a random accidental Universe as one would expect from an atheistic worldview ? Hmmmm.....
Atheism presupposes total knowledge . Perhaps you have enough knowledge from being able to examine the complexity in your human body, earth, solar system, etc... to determine that things like this dont arise by blind chance ....but you dont care to publicly admit it ? If this is the case, then that surely is your perogative .
That's not true, atheism does not presuppose total knowledge.
I don't believe there is an invisible elephant in my pocket. I don't have total knowledge of that fact, but I know it none-the-less. In the same sense, I know there is no God, and therefore am an atheist.... in fact I am a strong atheist, as a belief that there is no God is probably enough to adhere to the connotation of what it means to be an atheist.
Does theism require total knowledge? Or do you have a double standard?
That's not true, atheism does not presuppose total knowledge.
I don't believe there is an invisible elephant in my pocket. I don't have total knowledge of that fact, but I know it none-the-less. In the same sense, I know there is no God, and therefore am an atheist.... in fact I am a strong atheist, as a belief that there is no God is probably enough to adhere to the connotation of what it means to be an atheist.
Does theism require total knowledge? Or do you have a double standard?
Do you also KNOW that extreme examples of Design and precise Engineering always require intelligence with a Will for them to come about, continue to exist, and successfully accomplish a specific purpose ? Or, do you know this sounds like the workings of blind chance Naturalism ?
No, religion presupposes total knowledge. Your dogma demands total knowledge, or it prescribes everlasting pain and suffering upon death if you do NOT subscribe to such dogma.
Atheism makes no such demands on atheists. All we do is examine scientific evidence; we use verifiable, physical information to form a conclusion. There is no evidence whatsoever of a creator or a deity, so we reject that conclusion for now.
We don't go off on dogmatic, flights of fancy over magical deities merely because someone said so, and then express and command absolute adherence to those beliefs under pain of a lake of fire. That's religion's game.
Could i ask you to please give scientific evidence for the atheistic premise of a one celled Pond Protozoa popping into existence from dead chemicals within the atmosphere ? Please list the scientific evidence you have for non material personality traits such as reason, rational, love, intellect, freedom to choose, logic, design, truth, etc...ultimately arriving from rocks, planets, hydrogen gas, and helium . Finally, based on your rational atheism...please show how it is possible for the faces at Mt. Rushmore to be produced from the random natural elements of rainstorms, mudslides, lightening strikes, and tornados .... which is childsplay compared to our Cosmos.
Please dont tell me to read a book for the answers, use disparaging and defaming language toward me to help justify your cause...or tell me i just need to have great faith...but rather, explain using scientific constructs and/or proven examples .
Why don't you provide evidence for God creating these protozoa? YOU'RE the one presenting absolutism. Prove it.
Again, you're demanding absolute allegiance and adherence to a deity, the burden of proof is on you. Science has continually proved religion to be a farce, but religious people continue to dwell in the cracks of the unknowns where science has yet to find an answer, and demand that we accept God in those cracks.
No one alleged that Mount Rushmore's faces appeared through natural processes. This is an astonishing stawman. You're clearly a troll.
Don't tell me how to respond to your posts. You've displayed astonishing ignorance, insisted on stubbornly ignoring our questions while demanding that your loaded questions be answered, and you've also mischaracterized everyone's replies.
You really should be banned.
It was said that there is scientific evidence for an atheist and that it is reasonable and rational...so, im simply inquiring as to it --- I didnt make the claim, a couple of atheists in this thread have. Anti-supernaturalism is what atheists embrace..so by default, Naturalism is what they affirm as truth. And when its linked to scientific evidence...man , im interested in seeing it because maybe i was wrong in making my jump from the rationale of atheism to ('irrational') theism .
Should I be banned for having an inquisitive nature in a Forum that is designed for discussion of such competing views ? We can all learn from such discussion . Afterall, we ALL want the evidences dont we (??)
They are not infinite, not fine-tuned, and not constant. Gravitational forces vary dramatically all over the universe, for example. And conditions on earth have changed dramatically, countless times, over the past 4.5 billion years.
It does not appear as though we live in a "random, accidental" universe. The universe exists EXACTLY as we expect it would given the scientific laws that have been observed by scientists (scientists who, by the way, would never have undertaken such investigations if they were so incurious as to simply conclude that "God did it").
Where did these incredibly precise NON-material / scientifically defined and measurable Llaws come from ? From the results of an accidental uncaused big explosion of matter ? How did they all get together to work in complete unison with one another so Earth goes on being maintained, so our solar system doesnt collapse in on itself, and so things are kept in perfect balance ? What naturalistic source was responsible for this ? Please explain in very specific terms based on the rational of atheism so i can apply reasonable discernment and maybe find atheistic constructs tenable . Thank you so much.
Do you also KNOW that extreme examples of Design and precise Engineering always require intelligence with a Will for them to come about, continue to exist, and successfully accomplish a specific purpose ? Or, do you know this sounds like the workings of blind chance Naturalism ?
I notice you didn't answer my question: Do you have to have absolute knowledge that a God does exist in order to be a theist? Or do you have a double standard here?
But to your point, there are devices found in nature without design or pricse engineering that are at least as complex as anything created by man. In fact, many of them are far more so. So my answer is no, there is no requirement for a will and intelligence to create complex designs.
It was said that there is scientific evidence for an atheist and that it is reasonable and rational...so, im simply inquiring as to it --- I didnt make the claim, a couple of atheists in this thread have. Anti-supernaturalism is what atheists embrace..so by default, Naturalism is what they affirm as truth. And when its linked to scientific evidence...man , im interested in seeing it because maybe i was wrong in making my jump from the rationale of atheism to ('irrational') theism .
Should I be banned for having an inquisitive nature in a Forum that is designed for discussion of such competing views ? We can all learn from such discussion . Afterall, we ALL want the evidences dont we (??)
While atheism is NOT anti - supernaturalism - it is merely not believing in any gods, I see what you are getting at here. Yes, it does imply that we accept naturalist and materialist theory. The reason is that we see the material and natural world around us and science has discovered the mechanisms behind the way it works. We really see no need to suppose that a mind in behind it. We do not look at nature and see a jumbo jet assembled by a whirlwind, a watch lying on the beach or a carved artefact. What would you think of someone who said that mount Rushmore grew from a seed? Absurdity of course. It was made and someone clearly made it.
But a tree or frog wasn't made. They grew from seed and cell. We know this is so and therefore the comparison with manufactured artefacts is false and misleading.
Is this making sense or not, so far? If it is then we can proceed to why we don't even see the need to suppose a mind behind the seed or cell.
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