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Indeed some people have suggested that programs like AA become the new addiction. That people are replacing one addiction with another. I do put _some_ stock in that kind of thinking. An over dependency on AA or other groups can be every bit as detrimental as any other addiction.
AA should be see as a tool to help people stay off alcohol but it should be treated carefully lest it become a dependence or addiction too. Finding that balance in ones life is the ultimate challenge.
Atheist here considering trying out a 12-step program for a relatively uncommon addiction (a lot less common than gambling or alcoholism)--IE, not the sort addiction for which there are a bevy of non-spiritual alternatives (particularly since I'm currently living in a small city that's on the more religious side).
As I've imagined (and confirmed here), since the God factor will vary considerably from place to place, I probably just have to take the leap and find out for myself whether the local chapter is conducive to my needs. I'm pretty chill about religion and have no qualms analogizing the higher power element to the fact that there are some things in life which we have to accept are beyond our control (which, as I understand it, is the basic point), as long as my co-members aren't too nutty about it. Ideally, I'd like to be open about my atheism, just as I am in every day life, but I wouldn't mind feigning being mildly religious if the camaraderie of the group as a whole is positive, and their methods to success work for me as well.
Ideally, I'd like to be open about my atheism, just as I am in every day life, but I wouldn't mind feigning being mildly religious if the camaraderie of the group as a whole is positive, and their methods to success work for me as well.
Thoughts?
There is no need to turn yourself inside out in the first meeting. Feel out the group and get a sense of whether they can handle that much diversity. Besides, your atheism isn't all that relevant to your addiction anyway. It's kind of beside the point. Everyone in the group who successfully overcomes your particular x-aholism is going to do it for themselves, they just think there's an invisible elf in the sky helping them. They are going to help each other overcome. Let the god talk pass through you and just enjoy the support. If at some point someone invites you to church or grills you about your religious affiliations, you can just pose as a liberal "spiritual but not religious" Christian or similar, if it's what you feel you must do to prevent your atheism from taking the blame for any struggles or stumbles you experience. You'll know how far you can "come out" after you get a better sense of the group.
Atheist here considering trying out a 12-step program for a relatively uncommon addiction (a lot less common than gambling or alcoholism)--IE, not the sort addiction for which there are a bevy of non-spiritual alternatives (particularly since I'm currently living in a small city that's on the more religious side).
As I've imagined (and confirmed here), since the God factor will vary considerably from place to place, I probably just have to take the leap and find out for myself whether the local chapter is conducive to my needs. I'm pretty chill about religion and have no qualms analogizing the higher power element to the fact that there are some things in life which we have to accept are beyond our control (which, as I understand it, is the basic point), as long as my co-members aren't too nutty about it. Ideally, I'd like to be open about my atheism, just as I am in every day life, but I wouldn't mind feigning being mildly religious if the camaraderie of the group as a whole is positive, and their methods to success work for me as well.
Thoughts?
It's likely that there is more than one 12-step group in your area, and you might visit all of them and just say that you are not religious and see what the response is. (You might try a unitarian/universalist church to see whether they host a 12-step group or similar for addictions.) I wouldn't feign anything, because a common personality problem with addictive behavior is exactly dishonesty. A lot of the 12 steps are intended to focus on the things you (try to) conceal from yourself and others.
You might also look for a book called "we're all doing time" by bo lozoff. Lozoff is a prison counselor and has a lot of penetrating insights on getting straight in both the intoxicant sense and the facing-up-to-yourself sense.
I wonder whether there are online 12-step groups???
And, from the bottom of my heart, I wish you well.
I wouldn't feign anything, because a common personality problem with addictive behavior is exactly dishonesty. A lot of the 12 steps are intended to focus on the things you (try to) conceal from yourself and others.
Point taken, but there is a difference between having healthy personal boundaries and lying. No one is entitled to know the personal beliefs of another person just because they are both in a 12-step program together. And if there is strong prejudice against unbelief in the available programs, I would judge any benefit or help with addiction more important than outing oneself in a way that will undermine what one can get out of such a group.
That said, you're right that in a perfect world everyone could be totally open and candid and trusting in such situations.
There is no need to turn yourself inside out in the first meeting. Feel out the group and get a sense of whether they can handle that much diversity. Besides, your atheism isn't all that relevant to your addiction anyway. It's kind of beside the point. Everyone in the group who successfully overcomes your particular x-aholism is going to do it for themselves, they just think there's an invisible elf in the sky helping them. They are going to help each other overcome. Let the god talk pass through you and just enjoy the support. If at some point someone invites you to church or grills you about your religious affiliations, you can just pose as a liberal "spiritual but not religious" Christian or similar, if it's what you feel you must do to prevent your atheism from taking the blame for any struggles or stumbles you experience. You'll know how far you can "come out" after you get a better sense of the group.
This. ^^
The folks I met through my wife's brushes with AA didn't care if your higher power was the Christian god or a cosmic turnip or a giant question mark - just something outside yourself you could hang your hat (dependency) on.
I think it was a visual/mental aid more than anything else - letting something/one else help carry your load for a bit when the going got tough.
It helped some, though my wife was not one. I still firmly believe the program has merit.
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Originally Posted by TroutDude
This. ^^
The folks I met through my wife's brushes with AA didn't care if your higher power was the Christian god or a cosmic turnip or a giant question mark - just something outside yourself you could hang your hat (dependency) on.
I think it was a visual/mental aid more than anything else - letting something/one else help carry your load for a bit when the going got tough.
It helped some, though my wife was not one. I still firmly believe the program has merit.
I went with an ex girl friend of mine to some of her Al-Anon meetings. She is deeply invested in them, and for her, it worked. Six out of the twelve steps directly relate to a higher power, and of those six, four directly say the word God, although one of those tempers that by adding, "as we understand him".
There is no question that there is a serious religious undercurrent in any of the 12 step programs. I could not be involved with them.
An emerging and growing group is the SMART Recovery programs; no God, god or higher power needed.
Unfortunately, for any random person in any random community, the odds that there is an AA meeting are > 90% and the odds that there is a SMART meeting is probably < 5%. The nearest one to where I used to live (Chicago metro area) was about 25 miles away, and where I am now (upstate NY) it is more like 125 miles. But in both situations there was AA within walking distance.
But if I were going to one I would definitely check them out first, you never know, you may be lucky. Or if you are the outgoing type, maybe you could start one up yourself.
I find myself in the untenable position of being an agnostic in a 12 step program. I’ve been clean for almost five years. The trouble is I don’t actually believe that some magic Santa Claus in the sky is keeping me clean. I believe that I’m staying clean through the power of one addict helping another. I know I can’t stay clean by myself, I've tried. For the most part 12 step programs give a person the freedom to choose their own “Higher Power,” but when I started getting into the steps I’ve found that the wording really throws me off.
For example, I've been stuck on Step 11 for over a year: “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him.” I prayed for the first 3 years I was in recovery because it is suggested but it felt artificial the entire time and I never got any benefit from it. So I stopped.
I want to stay clean. I don’t want to relapse or run on self-will like I was but I can’t honestly pray or meditate. They say meditation is listening for God’s answer –well, all I hear when I try to meditate is the sound of my own scrambled thoughts. And frankly, if I heard God’s voice I would check myself into the nearest psychiatric ward anyway.
I’m wondering if there are any other atheists/agnostics out there in 12 step programs that could help me out. I feel really stuck and I am afraid of relapse.
As we understood him.
Do some meditation by yourself, listen to what your heart tells you, and strengthen your will. That's all.
God doesn't require us to believe in him. That's what makes her God.
I find myself in the untenable position of being an agnostic in a 12 step program. I’ve been clean for almost five years. The trouble is I don’t actually believe that some magic Santa Claus in the sky is keeping me clean. I believe that I’m staying clean through the power of one addict helping another. I know I can’t stay clean by myself, I've tried. For the most part 12 step programs give a person the freedom to choose their own “Higher Power,” but when I started getting into the steps I’ve found that the wording really throws me off.
For example, I've been stuck on Step 11 for over a year: “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him.” I prayed for the first 3 years I was in recovery because it is suggested but it felt artificial the entire time and I never got any benefit from it. So I stopped.
I want to stay clean. I don’t want to relapse or run on self-will like I was but I can’t honestly pray or meditate. They say meditation is listening for God’s answer –well, all I hear when I try to meditate is the sound of my own scrambled thoughts. And frankly, if I heard God’s voice I would check myself into the nearest psychiatric ward anyway.
I’m wondering if there are any other atheists/agnostics out there in 12 step programs that could help me out. I feel really stuck and I am afraid of relapse.
You have to get real. Its not about god. Its about stopping your inability to control yourself.
there is absolutely no requirement to believe in god to be in AA. Nobody in aa should be telling you that there is one. G_O_D can be a group of drunks helping you. That is it. That Group of drunks can help you better than yourself by yourself most times. Basicly it is about people helping people. NO GOD NEEDED!!!
Don't blame somebody else believing on your fall. Addiction is a chemical reaction. if you keep the reactants separated there will be no reaction. the worst thing that can happen is that you don't mess things up worse by being high or drunk and you will make a mistake using a clear head. Which is far better than a mistake while being drunk/high.
Also, you have to remember the time when it was written. "meditation" is a good thing. Period, end of discussion. If I have to go into why; you need a better mentor. Ignore the "praying to god" parts.
But I am not sure you are being totally honest with us because of how you describe "sky daddy" and don't describe AA properly.
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