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Old 06-20-2014, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Virginia
93 posts, read 77,577 times
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I find myself in the untenable position of being an agnostic in a 12 step program. I’ve been clean for almost five years. The trouble is I don’t actually believe that some magic Santa Claus in the sky is keeping me clean. I believe that I’m staying clean through the power of one addict helping another. I know I can’t stay clean by myself, I've tried. For the most part 12 step programs give a person the freedom to choose their own “Higher Power,” but when I started getting into the steps I’ve found that the wording really throws me off.

For example, I've been stuck on Step 11 for over a year: “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him.” I prayed for the first 3 years I was in recovery because it is suggested but it felt artificial the entire time and I never got any benefit from it. So I stopped.

I want to stay clean. I don’t want to relapse or run on self-will like I was but I can’t honestly pray or meditate. They say meditation is listening for God’s answer –well, all I hear when I try to meditate is the sound of my own scrambled thoughts. And frankly, if I heard God’s voice I would check myself into the nearest psychiatric ward anyway.

I’m wondering if there are any other atheists/agnostics out there in 12 step programs that could help me out. I feel really stuck and I am afraid of relapse.
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Old 06-20-2014, 12:56 PM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,371,160 times
Reputation: 2988
If the 12 steps is not working for you then seek another social support network related to alcoholism and addiction. AA might be the household name on the block that everyone knows but it is far from the only one available.

And many others have an approach that is not so clearly religious. The 12 steps clearly describe an interventionalist intentional personal god and this might not be for you. Many other alcohol help groups are entirely secular. While many people like yourself have managed to fit the square peg of their belief into the round hole provided by AA, usually by hacking bits off both until they become compatible in a contrived and artificial way.... many others simply fail to do so and find other less overtly theist groups to be more to their liking.

You could also seek to explore the useful aspects of AA individually. They do not have to be done together. One can see social support and "sponsors" outside of organisations like AA and others.

Meditation can also be explored entirely without the woo and nonsense. I heartily recommend reading the Sam Harris links at the bottom of my post for an intro on this. Following this have a read of "Wherever you go there you are" and the other books Sam recommends.

These forms of meditation are nothing whatsoever to do with "listening for gods answer" or any other such unsubstantiated religious tosh nonsense. I am as anti religion, theism and deism as it gets on this forum but I can recommend more secular forms of meditation without a modicum of reservation or embarrasment.

It is all about noticing, learning, recognising and controlling your moment to moment attention. And it can be massively beneficial to all kinds of people, including people with issues like your own and in fact no issues at all. Types like "Vipassana" are not going to have much of the woo nonsense that is clearly turning you off the subject.

And on top of all that MY advice with alcoholism is to realise that if you take alcohol out of your life then it leaves a hole. And if you do not fill that hole something else will. Usually alcohol again. I heartily recommend engaging in aspects of life that not only fill your time in beneficial and fulfilling ways but.... where possible.... should leave you nowhere near the option of alcohol. The most obvious example is hill and nature walking far away from.... as stephen fry would say..... "the nearest lemon" but examples and other ideas ABOUND if you but think of them or have others suggest them. I am sure myself and others on this thread will only be too happy to list some at length if you like until one clicks with you.

While this might sound as trivial as saying "The cure to addiction is get a hobby", and I have had people in the past attempt to misrepresent my views on the matter with that over simplification, it certainly is to my mind one of the foundation blocks to progress on this issue. You can not just improve life with the removal of alcohol but with also the REPLACEMENT of it with other fulfulling aspects of life.

And finally I would note that for many people alcohol is the problem. They simply became addicted to it. And their problem is addiction. For many others however alcohol is not the problem but a SYMPTOM of the problem.... some other issue or aspect of the addicts life which they are unhappy with, unable to cope with, or unable to progress with. Part of your journey must be to figure out which of these two camps you fall into. If it is just addiction your path is clearer. If it is something else, then part of your path is to deal with this aspect of life in parallel to dealing with your reliance on alcohol. And focusing on either to the neglect of the other is to again risk relapse. Again I am sure myself and others on this thread will be willing sounding boards if you want to bounce ideas off related to that particular path of inquiry into your future.

Also avoid any temptation to consider relapse a "failure" on your path. We all stumble on our walk through life. As Batmans dad says in the film "Why do we fall? In order to learn to pick ourselves up again!".

I hope some of this helps. I put as much in as I could without getting too carried away, but any questions or further feedback from your side will of course stimulate more specific replies from mine rather than the general response I have given thus far.

How to Meditate : : Sam Harris
A Contemplative Science : : Sam Harris
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Old 06-20-2014, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,109,095 times
Reputation: 21239
The other eleven steps seem to be working for you, so just think of it as an eleven step program and skip the religious element.
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Old 06-21-2014, 04:59 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,087 posts, read 20,697,383 times
Reputation: 5928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The other eleven steps seem to be working for you, so just think of it as an eleven step program and skip the religious element.
If they will let you.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Rivendell
1,385 posts, read 2,453,835 times
Reputation: 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
If the 12 steps is not working for you then seek another social support network related to alcoholism and addiction. AA might be the household name on the block that everyone knows but it is far from the only one available.

And many others have an approach that is not so clearly religious. The 12 steps clearly describe an interventionalist intentional personal god and this might not be for you. Many other alcohol help groups are entirely secular. While many people like yourself have managed to fit the square peg of their belief into the round hole provided by AA, usually by hacking bits off both until they become compatible in a contrived and artificial way.... many others simply fail to do so and find other less overtly theist groups to be more to their liking.

You could also seek to explore the useful aspects of AA individually. They do not have to be done together. One can see social support and "sponsors" outside of organisations like AA and others.

Meditation can also be explored entirely without the woo and nonsense. I heartily recommend reading the Sam Harris links at the bottom of my post for an intro on this. Following this have a read of "Wherever you go there you are" and the other books Sam recommends.

These forms of meditation are nothing whatsoever to do with "listening for gods answer" or any other such unsubstantiated religious tosh nonsense. I am as anti religion, theism and deism as it gets on this forum but I can recommend more secular forms of meditation without a modicum of reservation or embarrasment.

It is all about noticing, learning, recognising and controlling your moment to moment attention. And it can be massively beneficial to all kinds of people, including people with issues like your own and in fact no issues at all. Types like "Vipassana" are not going to have much of the woo nonsense that is clearly turning you off the subject.

And on top of all that MY advice with alcoholism is to realise that if you take alcohol out of your life then it leaves a hole. And if you do not fill that hole something else will. Usually alcohol again. I heartily recommend engaging in aspects of life that not only fill your time in beneficial and fulfilling ways but.... where possible.... should leave you nowhere near the option of alcohol. The most obvious example is hill and nature walking far away from.... as stephen fry would say..... "the nearest lemon" but examples and other ideas ABOUND if you but think of them or have others suggest them. I am sure myself and others on this thread will only be too happy to list some at length if you like until one clicks with you.

While this might sound as trivial as saying "The cure to addiction is get a hobby", and I have had people in the past attempt to misrepresent my views on the matter with that over simplification, it certainly is to my mind one of the foundation blocks to progress on this issue. You can not just improve life with the removal of alcohol but with also the REPLACEMENT of it with other fulfulling aspects of life.

And finally I would note that for many people alcohol is the problem. They simply became addicted to it. And their problem is addiction. For many others however alcohol is not the problem but a SYMPTOM of the problem.... some other issue or aspect of the addicts life which they are unhappy with, unable to cope with, or unable to progress with. Part of your journey must be to figure out which of these two camps you fall into. If it is just addiction your path is clearer. If it is something else, then part of your path is to deal with this aspect of life in parallel to dealing with your reliance on alcohol. And focusing on either to the neglect of the other is to again risk relapse. Again I am sure myself and others on this thread will be willing sounding boards if you want to bounce ideas off related to that particular path of inquiry into your future.

Also avoid any temptation to consider relapse a "failure" on your path. We all stumble on our walk through life. As Batmans dad says in the film "Why do we fall? In order to learn to pick ourselves up again!".

I hope some of this helps. I put as much in as I could without getting too carried away, but any questions or further feedback from your side will of course stimulate more specific replies from mine rather than the general response I have given thus far.

How to Meditate : : Sam Harris
A Contemplative Science : : Sam Harris
This is all excellent advice.
I would add one more small thing that really motivated me when I was dealing with a serious decade long drug addiction many years ago.
I just wanted to be somebody I liked.

Good luck to you!
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
11,364 posts, read 9,277,086 times
Reputation: 52582
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
If they will let you.
Do they throw people out of AA if one refuses to recognize god?
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:50 PM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,371,160 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
Do they throw people out of AA if they refuse to recognize god?
If only it were so straight forward as that.

Nah it differs from AA meeting to AA meeting. You can have AA meetings where everyone there throws out the god stuff and no one cares. But you will get AA meetings where it is the total opposite. But where they are not honest enough to tell you you are not welcome.... but will bombard you with passive aggression and shunning to the point you just have to leave.

AA meetings " on the ground " are unregulated so your expectations going in should be on a par with Forest Gump opening a box of chocolates. You might bite into the mint you want or the coffee you hate.

Acceptance of rejection of the "steps" is arbitrary and variable from meeting to meetings.

But as will all subjectivity.... if you find an AA group out of all the AA groups that fits with your feelings, desires and needs..... then AA is going to be a miracle for you that will help you like no other.
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Virginia
93 posts, read 77,577 times
Reputation: 326
Thank you so much for the responses and links. I've never heard of Sam Harris before and I am intrigued. I’m doing some investigation about him as I like being intrigued. I will continue to search for my own path and try to find my niche within NA. It’s not a perfect program for me but it is the best option I have found so far. It does often feel like I am a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, but I've found that the support I get from other members is genuine and helpful even if I don’t subscribe to all the dogma. I guess the bottom line is that I HAVE stayed clean so far.
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:28 PM
 
7,357 posts, read 11,754,732 times
Reputation: 8944
Have you tried LifeRing or Rational Recovery?

A good twelve-step group will admit that there are all kinds of higher powers -- you can admit that there are a lot of forces beyond your control that there is no point in fighting with! Sometimes finding a force beyond your control other than God -- maybe your own instinct to live! -- is a project worth working on.
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