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As a boomer, I can tell you for a fact that kids often DON'T do as their parents do. And it's been shown often enough that for most kids, their peers are more important than their parents, and that this effect becomes more pronounced as they get older.
If that weren't true the whole premise of this thread would be rendered invalid!
Your personal anecdote is not a valid argument. However, from observation many things go out of style and new ones are added over time. So you make a valid point assuming that numbers do not matter.
However, culture is a strong meme and it is a game of numbers. If the church going people reproduce at a faster rate than non-church going people the atheist perspective may remain in the background. Nevertheless, I suspect the atheist philosophy may prevail in the long run. And I don't think nothing will change as atheism is neutral. Unless-- other philosophies get attached. Someone has mentioned a close relationship between vegan and a Gen Z atheists.
Your point, if that was your original point and not another attempt at retconning your posts, was poorly written. You said that memes were passed AS genes, in a post about biological reproduction.
In any case, you still misunderstand the concept of memes. A meme is an idea that passes from person to person via communication. There is no requirement for a familial relationship. A strong idea, such as atheism, will flourish in the right environment, such as a civilization that values truth and logic while eschewing harsh punishment for divergent ideas.
That is why atheism flourishes in the west, relatively less so in the USA, and is having a more difficult time in harsh religious climates like Saudi Arabia, India and Egypt.
I still find your linking of “great ideas” to a specific biological group troubling.
You are preaching to the choir, but Dawkins who coined the term meme thinks a meme is very much like a gene. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORDS LITERALLY to write another post.
However, there is an obvious difference. Genes are only passed from parents to children whereas memes can also be passed from person to person with no kinship. Nevertheless when we talk about genes or memes numbers matter. In any event here is Dawkins describing the meme:
Don’t deflect. State what you mean by “something more”. State what it is. Where we find it. How we observe it. And of what use it is to us. And also what it is more than. More implies a relationship with something else and an enhanced quantity or quality than that other thing. So, what is the thing, what is the other thing, and what about the other thing is “more than” the thing?
Your personal anecdote is not a valid argument. However, from observation many things go out of style and new ones are added over time. So you make a valid point assuming that numbers do not matter.
However, culture is a strong meme and it is a game of numbers. If the church going people reproduce at a faster rate than non-church going people the atheist perspective may remain in the background.
But here again, you are assuming that because their parents are religious, the children will be also. And that is a leap for which I see no foundation. In fact, it's obvious that younger people, as a group, are less religious than their parents. Why else would the number of younger atheists be growing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Nevertheless, I suspect the atheist philosophy may prevail in the long run. And I don't think nothing will change as atheism is neutral. Unless-- other philosophies get attached. Someone has mentioned a close relationship between vegan and a Gen Z atheists.
If we continue to be a technological society, I am sure it will. Or at least, religious fundamentalism will be replaced by the liberal and tolerant religious strains we see in all the main religions today. I'm good with that.
As for atheism and veganism/vegetarianism, that's an old association, so old it's a cliche. Since we know that the number of the religiously unaffiliated is growing, it seems plain that they are not being scared off from atheism by the thought that atheism means they shouldn't eat animals. (Note I here use non-affiliated as a proxy for atheism, which it is not. But it's a useful shorthand for my argument.)
Well, this thread went to the dogs. Sn preaching how Jesus saved him, Arach raving about ...well, just raving. And Julian vid-quotemining Dawkins to make some kind of argument that i don't quite get.
You are preaching to the choir, but Dawkins who coined the term meme thinks a meme is very much like a gene. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORDS LITERALLY to write another post.
However, there is an obvious difference. Genes are only passed from parents to children whereas memes can also be passed from person to person with no kinship. Nevertheless when we talk about genes or memes numbers matter. In any event here is Dawkins describing the meme:
I am glad that your understanding has grown on this topic.
Sure, numbers matter, but numbers are not destiny. Atheism has grown from a minuscule percentage of the population to a non-trivial percentage. “Nones” have grown faster, but that is likely beneficial to atheism and detrimental to religion.
Concurrently, other memes detrimental to religion are thriving. The acceptance of LGBT individuals, the lost of prestige for clergy, the growth of social structures aside from the church, and several other memes eat away at the primacy of religion by showing people what hypocrites religious adherents are and reducing the need for religion in other ways.
I am not saying religion is doomed. I am saying that religion is likely to decline, perhaps precipitously.
I see that you are not interested in defending your statements that “great ideas” are linked to, and dependent upon, genetic groups. With any luck you are embarrassed by this racist statement.
Well, this thread went to the dogs. Sn preaching how Jesus saved him, Arach raving about ...well, just raving. And Julian vid-quotemining Dawkins to make some kind of argument that i don't quite get.
Julian is trying to walk back previous ill-considered statements without actually admitting he was wrong. So far he has done a 180 on his understanding of memes, my hope is we can get him to do similarly with racism.
I am glad that your understanding has grown on this topic.
Sure, numbers matter, but numbers are not destiny. Atheism has grown from a minuscule percentage of the population to a non-trivial percentage. “Nones” have grown faster, but that is likely beneficial to atheism and detrimental to religion.
Concurrently, other memes detrimental to religion are thriving. The acceptance of LGBT individuals, the lost of prestige for clergy, the growth of social structures aside from the church, and several other memes eat away at the primacy of religion by showing people what hypocrites religious adherents are and reducing the need for religion in other ways.
I am not saying religion is doomed. I am saying that religion is likely to decline, perhaps precipitously.
I see that you are not interested in defending your statements that “great ideas” are linked to, and dependent upon, genetic groups. With any luck you are embarrassed by this racist statement.
Or morph into its less murderous/monomaniacal versions. The sooner the better
Or morph into its less murderous/monomaniacal versions. The sooner the better
Sure, I would be ok with that.
I have several liberal Christian friends who are interested in respecting people and improving society. Those people are great, and their religion is not a problem. The dominionists and similar are the issue.
Btw, too soon for rep on a couple of posts.
Last edited by fishbrains; 12-01-2019 at 03:09 PM..
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