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Don't confuse and try to now change the topic I was responding to, which was your statement: "Your average Atheists is not an atheist, they are simply anti-religion types". And my response was: "And based on that history of religion -- a lot of which you seem to have forgotten or make excuses for -- it may be very valid to be anti-religion".
Anyone can make a case to be antireligious, I agree. How about belief-systems that are not based on a deity? These can also be irrational.
Don't confuse and try to now change the topic I was responding to, which was your statement: "Your average Atheists is not an atheist, they are simply anti-religion types". And my response was: "And based on that history of religion -- a lot of which you seem to have forgotten or make excuses for -- it may be very valid to be anti-religion".
Agreed, lets stay on target, it remains, anti-religion is so irrational the "valid states" are inconsequential or too far skewed to be meaningful. But avoiding 1/2 the facts so that a les reliable position remains reasonable, that is good to. Religion-ist type people often avoid what they can't handle.
This is an excellent perspective. I have been telling forum members that tribalism and believing in deities was a huge component of human evolution. And yet the rookie atheists get off on making fun of allegoric bible passages or put down the role on Christianity in Western Civilization. Your average Atheists is not an atheist, they are simply anti-religion types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Don't confuse and try to now change the topic I was responding to, which was your statement: "Your average Atheists is not an atheist, they are simply anti-religion types". And my response was: "And based on that history of religion -- a lot of which you seem to have forgotten or make excuses for -- it may be very valid to be anti-religion".
It's a wildly inaccurate statement anyway.
People make such statements based on a small handful of people they may have met on an internet forum.
'Your average atheist' in my experience is no such thing, if there is indeed such a thing as an average atheist.
I can tell you from the perspective of someone raised in the UK that there are a lot of atheists there. It's probably something like 45% of the population by now.
Like me, most of them celebrate Christmas. Not in a religious sense. In the UK Christmas is a massive event that everyone partakes in. But it's largely in the sense of tradition. A bit like the way Halloween is celebrated in the US in that everyone takes part.
Clearly this is not anti-religion.
As for America it depends where you are, but I've always lived in cosmopolitan cities where there are also lots of atheists. They tend to be more closeted about it still than they are in the UK. But once you get to know people you find that lots of people are atheist. They just don't go around shouting about it. However the ethos is the same. I rarely find anyone that is anti- religion. They just have come to their own conclusions based on reason and that's it.
Time and time again I find on this forum these misdirected ideas about who atheists are, because people derive their conclusions based on a few people they're come across on internet forums.
Internet forums do not represent real life. They more represent people with strong ideas that most regular people couldn't give two hoots about.
To me the atheist argument requires rejecting platonism in all its forms, even the fifth one
We have observed that the macro proceeds from the micro in our universe. Plasma became particles, which became hydrogen and helium, which became heavier elements, which agglomerated into heavenly bodies and life. We know that physical laws are properties of matter and energy in various states and quantities.
Physical laws are not laws that could exist without the physical substrate. In fact our physical laws are just mental models we have contrived that are highly accurate in certain contexts. There is no higher order or quintessence to figure out. If you want to know the truth, look below not above.
The micro does not proceed from the macro, which is the gist of the theistic argument. The macro extrapolated out to the level of deity is just conjecture. There is no evidence for it, whereas we have a lot of evidence that the macro did indeed proceed from the micro.
To me the atheist argument requires rejecting platonism in all its forms, even the fifth one
We have observed that the macro proceeds from the micro in our universe. Plasma became particles, which became hydrogen and helium, which became heavier elements, which agglomerated into heavenly bodies and life. We know that physical laws are properties of matter and energy in various states and quantities.
Physical laws are not laws that could exist without the physical substrate. In fact our physical laws are just mental models we have contrived that are highly accurate in certain contexts. There is no higher order or quintessence to figure out. If you want to know the truth, look below not above.
The micro does not proceed from the macro, which is the gist of the theistic argument. The macro extrapolated out to the level of deity is just conjecture. There is no evidence for it, whereas we have a lot of evidence that the macro did indeed proceed from the micro.
thats not really all the "gist" of the arguments.
As move up the reality stack the interactions become more complex. We reach a point in complexity that we bump into the first volume , due to how it behaves, that is classified as alive. As complexity increases, and size increases, the interactions have to adjust for those increases. Systems forming organisms.
All some of us are saying is that it doesn't stop with an organism. The interactions keep increasing in complexity to form the next few steps in a reality stack.
It's clearly plausible an idea. And when it has to be strongly rejected or avoided that really tells us more about the atheist than it does atheism.
To me the atheist argument requires rejecting platonism in all its forms, even the fifth one
We have observed that the macro proceeds from the micro in our universe. Plasma became particles, which became hydrogen and helium, which became heavier elements, which agglomerated into heavenly bodies and life. We know that physical laws are properties of matter and energy in various states and quantities.
Physical laws are not laws that could exist without the physical substrate. In fact our physical laws are just mental models we have contrived that are highly accurate in certain contexts. There is no higher order or quintessence to figure out. If you want to know the truth, look below not above.
The micro does not proceed from the macro, which is the gist of the theistic argument. The macro extrapolated out to the level of deity is just conjecture. There is no evidence for it, whereas we have a lot of evidence that the macro did indeed proceed from the micro.
For an agnostic the question is: Creation ex nihilo. The other alternative is that matter and energy are eternal.
People make such statements based on a small handful of people they may have met on an internet forum.
'Your average atheist' in my experience is no such thing, if there is indeed such a thing as an average atheist.
I can tell you from the perspective of someone raised in the UK that there are a lot of atheists there. It's probably something like 45% of the population by now.
Like me, most of them celebrate Christmas. Not in a religious sense. In the UK Christmas is a massive event that everyone partakes in. But it's largely in the sense of tradition. A bit like the way Halloween is celebrated in the US in that everyone takes part.
Clearly this is not anti-religion.
As for America it depends where you are, but I've always lived in cosmopolitan cities where there are also lots of atheists. They tend to be more closeted about it still than they are in the UK. But once you get to know people you find that lots of people are atheist. They just don't go around shouting about it. However the ethos is the same. I rarely find anyone that is anti- religion. They just have come to their own conclusions based on reason and that's it.
Time and time again I find on this forum these misdirected ideas about who atheists are, because people derive their conclusions based on a few people they're come across on internet forums. Internet forums do not represent real life. They more represent people with strong ideas that most regular people couldn't give two hoots about.
Very good post. It’s an important point about internet forums not representing real life. The emotionally driven combative, anti-theists (New Atheists) are a small proportion of all atheists but they are highly over represented on internet forums. It important to recognize this and not assume all atheists behave the same way.
Very good post. It’s an important point about internet forums not representing real life. The emotionally driven combative, anti-theists (New Atheists) are a small proportion of all atheists but they are highly over represented on internet forums. It important to recognize this and not assume all atheists behave the same way.
This forum!
And someone whose name starts with a P!
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