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Sorry but I did have to smile at the bolded.
Not content with the knowledge that a puffer fish can build and decorate an extremely complex and accurate pattern of concentric circles... 'ahhh yes, but can it build a different pattern?' LOL.
What do you want? No maybe it can't build the Taj Mahal. It's a fish of very little brain. One pattern of concentric circles from a little fish is astounding enough for me.
Astounding, yes - if one doesn't know how. Evolved instinct explains it.
Yeah, I always use what you say. But you have a tendency to run then come back later when the posts are long gone. You anti-god guys have a habit of running when we start looking at exactly what you say.
Things that make me go Hmmmmm ... Believing in some thing more complex trounces lack of belief based on gaps. The fact that I would have to DM the basic list of observations in any high school science book should tell you something.
when "we are just lacking belief because we are just responding to religion" starts to fold up under pressure be man enough not do what you accuse theist of doing.
Well, let's examine the result of your postings. 25,583 posts. 1,856 reputation posts.
Hmmmm.
It is astounding to me, as are snowflakes always having six arms. How does water know? My point is if it can only do one pattern because it is hard wired to do only one, then the pattern is not evidence of consciousness.
We are going to have to agree to disagree.
Apart from the rest of it, going around and picking up shells and decorating the ridges with them and tidying up straight lines IS evidence of consciousness. Those are deliberate actions.
Well, let's examine the result of your postings. 25,583 posts. 1,856 reputation posts.
Hmmmm.
Yeah. I am actually proud of that. When you refuse to rep me just because you don't like me it proves me right. You can;t process information out side of how you feel. A word or a phase will trigger you.
I You got stung, I don't know what it was, but I am sure if I learned more about I would say "that's it, that explains it."
Astounding, yes - if one doesn't know how. Evolved instinct explains it.
If you don't mind me saying, you and Harry seem to be viewing animal behaviour from a very human-centric stance, as though humans are the only beings that can possibly have consciousness.
Strikes me as a very religion-like viewpoint; a bit like Christians who believe pets can't go to hell.
Animals are intelligent in their own ways. What's evolved instinct anyway? It's learned behaviour that is somehow passed on from generation.
At some point somewhere, that particular behavior was learned for the first time and it worked and was passed on.
I've already given several examples. Dogs, cats, dolphins, spiders the puffer fish.
What about squirrels? Anybody that has EVER tried to feed birds via a squirrel proof bird feeder knows there is no such thing as a squirrel proof bird feeder. I know. We've tried them all. We've been through dozens of types. They work them out within a couple of days. Every time.
If you don't believe me, research the most squirrel proof bird feeders, buy one, fill it with bird seed and try it. Hang it from the top of a wire on a greasy pole. The squirrels will work it out.
Squirrels can work out the most fool proof assault course.
That's not instinct. That's intelligence.
Here's a bird that can plan ahead and some squirrel fun:
Yeah. I am actually proud of that. When you refuse to rep me just because you don't like me it proves me right. You can;t process information out side of how you feel. A word or a phase will trigger you.
I You got stung, I don't know what it was, but I am sure if I learned more about I would say "that's it, that explains it."
You know it too.
You're the one who is always telling us to make a list. I did. I compared frequent posters and their reputation points.
If you don't mind me saying, you and Harry seem to be viewing animal behaviour from a very human-centric stance, as though humans are the only beings that can possibly have consciousness.
Strikes me as a very religion-like viewpoint; a bit like Christians who believe pets can't go to hell.
That is bizarre as I have pointed out octopuses (think garden slugs that can swim) are conscious. What I am saying is that our brain is not just conscious, that is just a small, slow part of the process. Our brain operates more on the subconscious level (as do other animals), and also on an instinctive level (as do other animals).
One just needs to realize what part of the brain is responsible for which action, and that instinctive behavior alone can create complex behavior.
Ironically it may be you being human centric, attributing human abilities to animals such as the puffer fish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
Animals are intelligent in their own ways. What's evolved instinct anyway? It's learned behaviour that is somehow passed on from generation.
At some point somewhere, that particular behavior was learned for the first time and it worked and was passed on.
But is that learning, which implies consciousness? What about simple animals with very basic brains that respond instinctively? They have not learned how to behave, they just evolved that behavior because it worked. Those that did not died out. No conscious learning required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
I've already given several examples. Dogs, cats, dolphins, spiders the puffer fish.
What about squirrels? Anybody that has EVER tried to feed birds via a squirrel proof bird feeder knows there is no such thing as a squirrel proof bird feeder. I know. We've tried them all. We've been through dozens of types. They work them out within a couple of days. Every time.
If you don't believe me, research the most squirrel proof bird feeders, buy one, fill it with bird seed and try it. Hang it from the top of a wire on a greasy pole. The squirrels will work it out.
Squirrels can work out the most fool proof assault course.
That's not instinct. That's intelligence.
Exactly our point, it is intelligence. But just because other animals are conscious does not mean every animal is. And if we can get patterns in the universe without intelligent planning (galaxies, snowflakes), we can get some animals doing the same using instinct alone.
What makes me go Hmmmm ... Intelligent forward planning and intelligent but not as intelligent as us and and being just like us (just are here) are different notions.
Hmmmm ... Compare the system to something we classify as not alive and compare it to something alive. what does it match up to better to. Keep in mind, Better and not exactly. Then it how much better. Of course, thinking like that means we have to keep anti-religion out of it.
Hmmmm ... That is called a measurement and it kind of limits the less reliable ideas.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 04-06-2021 at 03:14 AM..
Apart from the rest of it, going around and picking up shells and decorating the ridges with them and tidying up straight lines IS evidence of consciousness. Those are deliberate actions.
It is also evidence of instinctive behavior, just as the Köcherfliegen larvae make a shell of of small stones, or the birds that can run as soon as they hatch.
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