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I was thinking about this, recently. Would be curious to any comments/thoughts.
When people believe in God, and other religious beliefs, or things related to that- what they're believing is true, is almost always something that benefits them. Coincidentally (conveniently), it's, the things they want to be true, the ideas that give them the most comfort, that they're claiming, are in fact true and real.
They're biased, is what I'm saying. And that if anything, that's a sign of evidence against a position or argument. It's never (or, rarely), "well, I don't care if there's a God or not, and I'd be fine if there wasn't, and it doesn't bring me any comfort that there is, but the evidence points to there being a God". Or, I've never heard anything like that kind of argument.
Meanwhile in the actual real world, of often harsh and sad realities (because, natura non contristatur), we see that reality is only what presents itself to us, through our observation and experience of living in it. It's rarely or never what we would ideally want it to be, or what would bring us the most comfort or peace or happiness.
Yes, your loved one died, and it was a tragedy and they did not deserve to die by anything they ever did wrong. But that's how life goes, and you will never be reunited with them. All dead people are dead and gone forever. All we have is the memories, and what they left behind.
I think that most of religion is mostly about the understandable human fear and denial of that cold and hard fact: death. Understandable, but, ultimately we're better off facing it as it is, with no sugar coating.
I don't think people should believe in anything. Because, the things that are actually real, you don't need to believe in. You wake up in the morning and you observe that the sun rises. If any religious claims were real, then, people wouldn't need to believe in them. The attraction to/the need for/the belief in a thing, shows us that that thing is very likely not true.
Here's my take on this:
I really don't care what people believe in. If believing in a vile, nasty creature like, say, Yahweh or Jehovah or Allah -- or even one of the nicer and more philosophical gods like Buddha, then more power to them. All that I ask is that people keep their beliefs to themselves -- or those with the same beliefs.
As I've said many times before: Religion is fine individually. But the moment it became organized and then started poking its nose into our governments is when it all went horribly wrong. It really grinds my gears when people try legislating morality. It goes without saying that SOME legislating is necessary. Obviously any belief that harms others needs to be legislated. No one should be allowed to invoke the 1st Amendment of the Constitution by saying, "Oh yeah, I worship the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli so I have to offer up to him a human heart every morning or the sun won't rise -- so I should be exempt from laws against murder." Of course not.
But when they get into this utter crap about gays and transgenders - well frankly - it's none of their damn business if someone wishes to engage in a same-sex romance or if they feel they were born the wrong gender. More importantly: Why do they even care?
Organized religion went off the rails when it decided it had a literal "god given" right to tell everyone else how to live. Why should women be prohibited from wearing pants, for instance. Or for that matter, why should a man be prohibited from wearing a dress? If that's what he wants to do, let him. It's SUPPOSED to be a free country. Notice how it never is when religion gets involved in government. Then the country becomes an authoritarian fascistic nightmare -- like Saudi Arabia where they actually have something called The Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV). Can you believe that garbage?
If you were a woman, how would you like it if you were walking down the street minding your own damn business when you're suddenly surrounded by a group of men. Then these men proceed to order you against the wall at which point they pull out a tape measurer and literally measure the hemline of your dress then rudely berate you because your dress was a centimeter too short. And you'd be getting off lucky. Because it's assumed that you had a male escort - and this escort would comprise of only immediate family members. Your father, son, husband or brother. Imagine if your father had died before you were born, you were an only child AND unmarried and, therefore, didn't have a son. Who the hell knows how you were supposed to function in crazy Islamic society. Oh no, then the CPVPV decides that a couple of stray wisps of hair broke free of your gender-neutral head covering -- because if there's one thing God hates more than anything else is --- FEMALE HAIR!! Holy shyte, Allah has been known to wipe out entire dimensions in a fit of pique over that awful female hair! (Men's hair is okay though). Just look at the revolution going on in Iran right now ... just so women can show their hair!
What makes this even more outrageous (as if it needs it), is that Muslim women must not only cover their evil hair -- maybe they thought women's hair would turn into snakes and turn men who gazed upon it to stone like some Greek myths involving Medusa -- but the neck, too, was just too damn sexy for men to see without losing all control and therefore must be covered as well. I can only assume that, eventually, someone (some man) finally said, "to hell with it" and ruled that women must wear a literal sack over their entire bodies in order to comply with religious modesty rules. Because men in Arabian countries didn't want to have to be responsible for their own actions. Therefore it was just easier to put women into big black sacks. If they got raped, then it was obviously their fault because they would not have gotten raped if they were following the modesty rules. Right? Right.
This is the kind of utter rubbish that makes religion ridiculous. Why can't people just worship their god in whichever way they wish to. They can pray to it. Bow to it. Faceplant their nose into the carpet if they want. They can put their hands together in that silly way people do when they pray - as if doing that will make their prayers more powerful. They can sing songs, dance, chant, meditate -- I don't care if they want to meow at their deity. But when they get into these STOOPID rules about how to dress and what you can eat and how to have sex and with whom and in what positions - that's when they can all sod off.
Even a supposed comfy life in the First World can be full of danger and stress -- so why in hell do we have to add to it all with these IDIOTIC rules. If I need a goddamn gallon of milk, I don't want to have to call half a dozen male family members to try and get someone to escort me to the friggin store. If I were a male, I wouldnt at all be happy having the phone ringing constantly because this sister, aunt, mom, or whomever needs an escort. Didn't anyone think any of this crap through? It also shows that the Qu'ran isn't any more timeless than the Bible - as no one in the 6th Century A.D. ever imagined that 1,400 years later, just maybe, people wouldn't have 10-15 children?
I just know that I would never make it in one of these cruddy misogynistic nations. I'm way too independent for that. No ... I don't need the added stress and worry of a random hem length check. And no, I don't always want a big heavy pile of rags on my head when it's 105 degrees outside. And no, I don't want to go out on the town only to find no one recognizes me, so all of my friends pass right by having no idea it's me - or I knowing it's them. Because of these STOOPID rules. But no one gives a hoot what women want. Because our job is to merely pump out babies right up to and during menopause.
And you don't get an annoying fine or some kind of written warning. Nope. You get dragged right out into the middle of town and beaten with a stick. Even if you're a frail senior with one foot in the grave already - you'll be whipped. How many times will depend on how egregious the infraction.
One of the most disgusting aspects of Muslim heaven is that -- even in paradise, everyone isn't equal. I mean, seriously, who wants to spend all of their time in the mortal world trying to accumulate brownie points to have greater rewards in heaven. So you can look down and stick out your tongue at those who are lesser than you. And not just because some asshat like Hitler says they are lesser -- but because GOD does. It just goes to show you that all of this nonsense was invented and made-up by human men who simply cannot let go of the idea of being better than everyone else around them. Obviously someone with enough power to invent religious laws has enough religious clout as to be sitting pretty in heaven so, yeah, might as well invent some kind of clause stating that rewards will be greatest for those who've accumulated those brownie points.
And so few seem to "get it." Instead, they accept this utter nonsense as legitimate and true even though it behooves them to disbelieve it -- and how.
Bottom line to yet another lengthy post is that I agree with you for the most part. I will only say that it would be hypocritical of me to demand that people stop believing in things if it doesn't affect me. Just like I've told religious people that it's flagrantly unfair to attack gays and transgenders if what they do does not affect them. However, if a gay president and a majority gay congress tried to pass a law saying straight people cannot get married, well ... I would be just as much against that ruling as I am against it the other way around. I think a lot of people think that my attacks against Christianity stem from a hatred of Christians - which is just nonsensical and silly. I'm against rulings like that because I believe we should have as much choice as possible when making the decisions in our lives -- and not have some ridiculous law telling us what clothes to wear, what parts of our bodies must be covered or whether we can wear make-up or whether we're allowed to drive or vote or be seen in public without male escorts or whether our skirts are too short.
Unfortunately, since it seems that people are unable to believe in their own deity in their own way and would much rather try to push their beliefs onto the rest of society, it would do humanity a good favor if i.t was all thrown out with the trash. Believe me when I say that I wouldn't care one iota if people would rather believe in Allah.
Well, I still don't understand why you thin g science can't "get behind" the Big Bang, but I'll just give up on trying to make sense out of that.
What I asked in my question (the second one) was what did you mean by using the term "by definition" when you said "So, how did it all begin? Not by itself, by definition." "By definition" of what?
Just pull out your handy Merriam Webster Dictionary. "So, how did it all begin? Not by itself, by definition."
Right now, I feel like I'm pointing out a pool of water to you. But you won't admit that it's water. You refuse delivery, by quibbling over definitions. It's simple, really. Let's just take a human being, for example. You and I are physical and finite. We had a beginning, we will die, too. We are not eternal. And we are certainly not responsible for our own conception and birth. Someone ELSE took care of that.
Same with The Big Bang, or as religious types like to say, "The Creation." Something eternal must be responsible. Maybe better expressed as "Eternal."
Just pull out your handy Merriam Webster Dictionary. "So, how did it all begin? Not by itself, by definition."
Right now, I feel like I'm pointing out a pool of water to you. But you won't admit that it's water. You refuse delivery, by quibbling over definitions. It's simple, really. Let's just take a human being, for example. You and I are physical and finite. We had a beginning, we will die, too. We are not eternal. And we are certainly not responsible for our own conception and birth. Someone ELSE took care of that.
Same with The Big Bang, or as religious types like to say, "The Creation." Something eternal must be responsible. Maybe better expressed as "Eternal."
What is created cannot be eternal. What is Eternal cannot be created. By definition. .
It is Uncreated. It is Existence.
When people believe in God, and other religious beliefs, or things related to that- what they're believing is true, is almost always something that benefits them. Coincidentally (conveniently), it's, the things they want to be true, the ideas that give them the most comfort, that they're claiming, are in fact true and real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Meanwhile in the actual real world, of often harsh and sad realities (because, natura non contristatur), we see that reality is only what presents itself to us, through our observation and experience of living in it. It's rarely or never what we would ideally want it to be, or what would bring us the most comfort or peace or happiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
We want the things that comfort us, like a creator, an afterlife, other life out there somewhere. But the actual universe is a harsh place and has never cared what we want. Anything is possible, but I would not be surprised if we are the only life, or especially the only intelligent life.
From my perspective, neither life nor atheism is a ‘harsh and sad reality’; we can still find comfort, peace and happiness in a world without a god. Psychology brings comfort and benefits us as atheists; are you suggesting it is not true and real?
In other words, it is human nature (not just relative to religious belief) to question our existence and desire ‘peace’, comfort and happiness. Religion is less about a god, from my perspective, and more about finding meaning, social organization and (the avoidance of) existential angst. You (and others in this Forum) invariably make it about being right vs. wrong rather than the bigger picture, as a whole. Hence, from my perspective, you will always fail; you shortsightedly argue against something you acknowledge brings comfort to some folks (above) yet you do not offer a reasonable alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
What is created cannot be eternal. What is Eternal cannot be created. By definition. .
It is Uncreated. It is Existence.
Cb, your posts crack me up. Since you were touting the usage of quotes in another thread, I have one for you.
‘The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.’
From my perspective, neither life nor atheism is a ‘harsh and sad reality’; we can still find comfort, peace and happiness in a world without a god. Psychology brings comfort and benefits us as atheists; are you suggesting it is not true and real?
In other words, it is human nature (not just relative to religious belief) to question our existence and desire ‘peace’, comfort and happiness. Religion is less about a god, from my perspective, and more about finding meaning, social organization and (the avoidance of) existential angst. You (and others in this Forum) invariably make it about being right vs. wrong rather than the bigger picture, as a whole. Hence, from my perspective, you will always fail; you shortsightedly argue against something you acknowledge brings comfort to some folks (above) yet you do not offer a reasonable alternative.
Cb, your posts crack me up. Since you were touting the usage of quotes in another thread, I have one for you.
‘The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.’
Don’t we all need the truth of comedy once in a while in a forum so full of woe? Glad to oblige.
You (and others in this Forum) invariably make it about being right vs. wrong rather than the bigger picture, as a whole. Hence, from my perspective, you will always fail; you shortsightedly argue against something you acknowledge brings comfort to some folks (above) yet you do not offer a reasonable alternative.
Yeah, guess what? Reality is not based around what brings comfort to people.
I agree that there's plenty of comfort in reality. But I also think that comfort is not necessarily the goal of seeking truth, and I think the truth of things is important for its own sake. Religion can definitely be a 'crutch'... 'opiate of the masses'.
Yeah, guess what? Reality is not based around what brings comfort to people.
I agree that there's plenty of comfort in reality. But I also think that comfort is not necessarily the goal of seeking truth, and I think the truth of things is important for its own sake. Religion can definitely be a 'crutch'... 'opiate of the masses'.
I just know that I would never make it in one of these cruddy misogynistic nations...
You're right, but unfortunately people get called bigots/racists/"Islamophobic", and get cancelled when they speak out against illiberal Islamism. And in terms of the US, some of those countries are regional strategic partners. And yet they throw gay people off of balconies, and execute people left and right... for thoughts.
Islam is harming the world, and its biggest victim is ordinary Muslims.
(And in China or North Korea, the religion is the tyrannical state.)
Yeah, guess what? Reality is not based around what brings comfort to people.
I never said it was. For clarity, I stated neither life nor atheism is a ‘harsh and sad reality’ (as you described); there are those of us who are capable of finding comfort, peace and happiness in a world without a god. I believe it is what we make of it; after all, we have no other choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
I agree that there's plenty of comfort in reality. But I also think that comfort is not necessarily the goal of seeking truth, and I think the truth of things is important for its own sake.
From my perspective, application (wisdom) is more important than knowledge for its own sake. In other words, all of us want ‘peace’ and happiness in our lives; however, we need to understand how to obtain it (by way of Psychology and/or the study of knowledge, reality, and existence i.e. Philosophy) rather than relying on a god or our atheism, in and of itself, to provide such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Religion can definitely be a 'crutch'... 'opiate of the masses'.
I’ve said the same thing myself, many times. However, the crucial point being, one must logically offer an alternative or teach/encourage folks to stand on their own rather than repeatedly attempting to take the floor out from under them and expecting them to fly sans considering the reality re: a human need for comfort, peace, purpose and happiness. Folks use crutches for a reason; who are you to determine if they need them or not?
I never said it was. For clarity, I stated neither life nor atheism is a ‘harsh and sad reality’ (as you described); there are those of us who are capable of finding comfort, peace and happiness in a world without a god. I believe it is what we make of it; after all, we have no other choice.
Of course. I'm also capable of finding comfort, peace, and happiness, or at least at times in my life. Sometimes circumstances get in the way.
What I meant to describe as harsh (and, often sad), is the universe itself. Natura non contristatur: the natural world is not sentimental or compassionate. It's just a fact. And the thought that sparked this thread was, the fact that people have a tendency to want harsh things to not be so harsh. There is a bias towards a comforting type of afterlife belief system, which is the comfort part of it.
Just like there's probably a bias if we're fairly thinking about the question of whether there are aliens out there somewhere. There might be, but I think we generally want there to be, and we should recognize that fact as a bias, in my view.
I could think of things that I might wish for (about the after life, and such), that might would give me a sense of comfort. I don't think there's anything wrong about acknowledging that. It just doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. I shouldn't believe in what I have no evidence for.
The universe is harsh and cold, and I suspect it will never be anything else, including after this life. But, to your point, yes you can definitely find comfort in that harshness and coldness. Plenty of atheists often do.
Quote:
From my perspective, application (wisdom) is more important than knowledge for its own sake. In other words, all of us want ‘peace’ and happiness in our lives; however, we need to understand how to obtain it (by way of Psychology and/or the study of knowledge, reality, and existence i.e. Philosophy) rather than relying on a god or our atheism, in and of itself, to provide such.
Yeah, they're both important. I just place a high value on a 'no sugar coating' as the first priority of how we are observing and interpreting the world. Observation should seek things exactly as they are. Then, we can find wisdom within that observation, and apply it to our lives and what drives and motivates us, etc.
Quote:
I’ve said the same thing myself, many times. However, the crucial point being, one must logically offer an alternative or teach/encourage folks to stand on their own rather than repeatedly attempting to take the floor out from under them and expecting them to fly sans considering the reality re: a human need for comfort, peace, purpose and happiness. Folks use crutches for a reason; who are you to determine if they need them or not?
Your point is valid, I think. I don't want to take away people's crutches that need crutches. I do want people to see that atheists are good and flawed and balanced and emotional people, without god. I want people to see that atheists can find comfort in our worldview, as well. But not everyone needs to be an atheist. My mom's definitely not, and I love her and don't want to change her. Whatever works for her is fine with me. Her comfort is the important part, for me.
Or take a religious funeral, for example. A decent atheist attends the church service and acknowledges the pain of the family and friends, and their expression of their loss, and understands their possible need to cope via religious belief type mechanisms. We need to put our 'annoying militant atheism' vice aside, when we're dealing with human beings and human beings' need for comfort and peace, in the harshness of the world. I completely agree with that.
But if someone asks me about my overall world view, I will tell them. I think the coldness is great. I like the coldness. I discard any notion of comfort, and embrace the world that's left over, because it's actually real. It's completely real. It's not a biased version of reality.
I appreciate the time I've spent in this world and in my life so far, however imperfect or not ideal. We're all a part of something- that's this universe, and I think that's awesome. There's a connectedness to it all.
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