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I'm having to think twice about whether I am understanding you or cb here, but I think I agree with where you are landing. Belief(s) and/or lack of belief(s) are certainly actionable in that what we believe or don't believe causes us to act accordingly.
Personally, at our dinner table going back to when our family first became a family and all the while after, we never had religion, prayer or thanks to a god as part of our "culture." We had all the other "major contributors" fairly represented, however, and I've never felt a lack of religion in our household was in any way a lack of culture. Although many of our travels together as a family and discussions did involve religion and religious cultural elements. From the Vatican in Italy, to the Mayan ruins in Mexico, to the watts in Thailand, etc.
For whatever any of that is worth as I sign off now to get on with preparing our BSB. Here's a good Sunday to all, and both the women's and men's NCAA championship games today and tomorrow!
Go SDSU (my daughter's alma mater). Sports is another of those cultural biggies. For me and many others anyway...
The bolded is what might be meant when CB2008 said that disbelief is "not actionable". We did not talk about god or religion in our house. That is a lack of "action". My daughter didn't feel anything was missing. When other children started talking about God and Christ, then she started to question what she might be missing. Our view is that it is something cultural that she can learn about if she wishes to, no different than learning all of the phrases my husband's family uses before meals and after meals.
You have a good point. Religion, which almost ways means a belief in a God, is part of a culture. To take it away, would mean less culture. For example, at mealtime, many families say a general thanks to everyone who is present and to the people who prepared the meal. However, religion would provide an additional layer of culture by thanking a God. Disbelief in a God would either take it away or never add to culture.
When we learn about culture during our schooling, the major research categories almost always include religion along with education, diet, clothing, holidays, music, government, etc... It is easy to see that atheism can be perceived as an attempt to chop off one of the major contributors to human behavior. If that is true, then a disbelief can be actionable.
Interesting perspective, elyn. Yes religion does add a segment to culture, often a major one. I actually do not see atheism, being always a minor segment of most communities, either adding or subtracting anything to culture. It is a neutral effect. Have you come across atheism playing an active role in such a way in any of your studies?
My thought was actually far simpler.
If i believed, based on weather report, that there is 69% chance of rain, i will take my umbrella. If. If i disbelieve that it will rain because it is sunny right now, then i need to do nothing when i step out.
Belief in a divinity leads to action - of study of texts, prayer, worship. If you disbelieve divinity exists you need to do nothing.
Interesting perspective, elyn. Yes religion does add a segment to culture, often a major one. I actually do not see atheism, being always a minor segment of most communities, either adding or subtracting anything to culture. It is a neutral effect. Have you come across atheism playing an active role in such a way in any of your studies?
My thought was actually far simpler.
If i believed, based on weather report, that there is 69% chance of rain, i will take my umbrella. If. If i disbelieve that it will rain because it is sunny right now, then i need to do nothing when i step out.
Belief in a divinity leads to action - of study of texts, prayer, worship. If you disbelieve divinity exists you need to do nothing.
Wrong. Bzzzzzzzt! Thanks for playing.
You would be quite correct ... IF ... religion stayed in its own playpen. Unfortunately, it rarely ever does. Instead, religion just LOVES to meddle in everyone's lives.
The problem is that atheists can no longer do nothing. In case you haven't noticed, there has been a steep rise in atheistic activism - and there has to be in order for us to keep our freedoms. Considering what has happend - and is still currently happening - to women's reproductive rights, I think you see my point. After all, those fanatic freaks will not stop until it is literally illegal to have sex unless there is a chance to get pregnant. They want sex to be used only for reproduction - as if we were animals in rutting season.
The follow-on laws many states are passing now are nothing short of authoritarian fascism - and most of this crap is inspired by religious belief.
Look at these crazy-ass laws being passed in Florida - where even high school kids are no longer allowed to talk about gays or transgendered people - even if some of the students are gay or trans. Or their parents are. Yeah, let's culturally isolate those kids - maybe that'll turn them straight, dammit! Pretend they don't exist!
Or you could be like Kentucky, which tried to amend its state constitution to - get this - ALLOW BULLYING in school as long as it was done for religious purposes. I'm not kidding. Look it up. Of course this was targeted at gays - but it simply opens up the door for anyone to bully anyone else and claim they had a religious justification.
One of the main reasons why I became an anti-theist is because religion is inherently fascistic and authoritarian. As such, we atheists have to constantly stand our ground and FIGHT to keep ourselves free from religious tyranny. I cannot even count the number of people on this very forum who have said in no uncertain terms: "You have freedom OF religion, but you do not have freedom FROM religion!"
First of all, you can't have one without the other anyway. Not sure why that is so hard to understand. But secondly - and most importantly - it shows you the mindset of these people. They are not interested AT ALL of letting you live your own life and make your own choices. No, they would rather tell you what books you can read, what movies to watch, what music to listen to, how to dress, how to style your hair, how to have sex and with whom, and even who to hate, who to bully, who deserves eternal torture, and thousands of other little intrusive rules and regulations.
If you think I'm full of it, all you have to do is look at many of the atrocities we keep hearing about coming from a lot of nations where religion rules the land. Even now, women are being murdered, beaten, and imprisoned - all for the horrible crime of wanting to wear their hair openly. Hair. Could anyone here in the West ever think of literally dying for such an "insignificant" right? To be able to choose how to wear your friggin HAIR? But that's what happens when you let religion intermix with government.
This is why for some atheists - a growing number of them - not believing in a god does mean actually doing something. Some of us - especially we women - do not relish the idea of waking up one morning to find ourselves ruled by a Christian Taliban.
You would be quite correct ... IF ... religion stayed in its own playpen. Unfortunately, it rarely ever does. Instead, religion just LOVES to meddle in everyone's lives.
The problem is that atheists can no longer do nothing. In case you haven't noticed, there has been a steep rise in atheistic activism - and there has to be in order for us to keep our freedoms. Considering what has happend - and is still currently happening - to women's reproductive rights, I think you see my point. After all, those fanatic freaks will not stop until it is literally illegal to have sex unless there is a chance to get pregnant. They want sex to be used only for reproduction - as if we were animals in rutting season.
The follow-on laws many states are passing now are nothing short of authoritarian fascism - and most of this crap is inspired by religious belief.
Look at these crazy-ass laws being passed in Florida - where even high school kids are no longer allowed to talk about gays or transgendered people - even if some of the students are gay or trans. Or their parents are. Yeah, let's culturally isolate those kids - maybe that'll turn them straight, dammit! Pretend they don't exist!
Or you could be like Kentucky, which tried to amend its state constitution to - get this - ALLOW BULLYING in school as long as it was done for religious purposes. I'm not kidding. Look it up. Of course this was targeted at gays - but it simply opens up the door for anyone to bully anyone else and claim they had a religious justification.
One of the main reasons why I became an anti-theist is because religion is inherently fascistic and authoritarian. As such, we atheists have to constantly stand our ground and FIGHT to keep ourselves free from religious tyranny. I cannot even count the number of people on this very forum who have said in no uncertain terms: "You have freedom OF religion, but you do not have freedom FROM religion!"
First of all, you can't have one without the other anyway. Not sure why that is so hard to understand. But secondly - and most importantly - it shows you the mindset of these people. They are not interested AT ALL of letting you live your own life and make your own choices. No, they would rather tell you what books you can read, what movies to watch, what music to listen to, how to dress, how to style your hair, how to have sex and with whom, and even who to hate, who to bully, who deserves eternal torture, and thousands of other little intrusive rules and regulations.
If you think I'm full of it, all you have to do is look at many of the atrocities we keep hearing about coming from a lot of nations where religion rules the land. Even now, women are being murdered, beaten, and imprisoned - all for the horrible crime of wanting to wear their hair openly. Hair. Could anyone here in the West ever think of literally dying for such an "insignificant" right? To be able to choose how to wear your friggin HAIR? But that's what happens when you let religion intermix with government.
This is why for some atheists - a growing number of them - not believing in a god does mean actually doing something. Some of us - especially we women - do not relish the idea of waking up one morning to find ourselves ruled by a Christian Taliban.
Those who are infatuated with the christian religion need to do some extensive reading about the Salem witch trials.
Interesting perspective, elyn. Yes religion does add a segment to culture, often a major one. I actually do not see atheism, being always a minor segment of most communities, either adding or subtracting anything to culture. It is a neutral effect. Have you come across atheism playing an active role in such a way in any of your studies?
My thought was actually far simpler.
If i believed, based on weather report, that there is 69% chance of rain, i will take my umbrella. If. If i disbelieve that it will rain because it is sunny right now, then i need to do nothing when i step out.
Belief in a divinity leads to action - of study of texts, prayer, worship. If you disbelieve divinity exists you need to do nothing.
No, to keep it simple.
The more complex answer is a stretch, I will admit. Atheism has a very specific meaning which is that there is a belief there is no god. Atheism separated into it's parts - a.theism - means without God. So any conversation that doesn't mention God as a reason is a conversation without God. All the science classes I took did not require me to believe in God and I could not answer that God was part of the answer.
However, that cannot be said of religion. If the topic was evolution, then a religious person did say, "In my religion, we believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old." If it is agreed that religion is part of culture and contributes to culture, then this statement can be viewed as a contribution as well. We just don't have to accept it. Not accepting it though can get one accused of being an atheist.
No, to keep it simple.
The more complex answer is a stretch, I will admit. Atheism has a very specific meaning which is that there is a belief there is no god. Atheism separated into it's parts - a.theism - means without God. So any conversation that doesn't mention God as a reason is a conversation without God. All the science classes I took did not require me to believe in God and I could not answer that God was part of the answer.
However, that cannot be said of religion. If the topic was evolution, then a religious person did say, "In my religion, we believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old." If it is agreed that religion is part of culture and contributes to culture, then this statement can be viewed as a contribution as well. We just don't have to accept it. Not accepting it though can get one accused of being an atheist.
Why a belief there is no god? Why not just there is no god? Science mentions no god at all, so belief nor disbelief come into play in a science class. God is irrelevant, outside the field of study. That is science. Theists study science, they even work in the field. They see no conflict. It is just another kind of knowledge, like geography. No god. Theists study geography with no conflict. Do you see the pattern?
Religious people may say “in my religion… etc” but they also study evolution. I know the mention of theory gets very heated here, but it is. There is scientific theory and there is spiritual faith. The means of knowledge to each is different. A religious person might say earth is god, it is sacred. It is a blessing and we need to treat it with respect and care. So what? We all need to treat the earth with care, it cannot be drill baby drill. We know that.
If one is an atheist, how can it be an accusation? Why does it feel like an accusation? That might be something to think about.
Huh? I don't have enough bread crumbs to be able to follow my way home after that.
The simplest assertion, logical and pure, goes like this:
a) the physical universe is finite and limited by virtue of its being physical, observable.
b) A physical universe ipsofacto requires a frame of time and space around everything in it.
c) limited, finite, physical space/time logically requires something beyond itself in order to exist, responsible for its creation, whatever you may call it. Something eternal. Something with the power to CREATE what we know within space/time. Because all that is within space/time cannot possibly have created itself.
The End.
Sorry but this is a misunderstanding of physics.
We don't actually know if the universe is infinite or finite.
The edge of the observable universe from our point of view is a radius of about 46.5 billion light years, ie going away from us in any direction, so roughly 93 billion light years in diameter. Observable is the operative word. That's only as far as we can see due to the physical limit of the speed of light. We don't actually know what is beyond that and unless you suppose the earth is the center of the universe, it is rational to suppose that the universe is actually far, far bigger than we can actually see. In other words if you are standing at any point in the observable universe, say looking out from let's say the Andromeda galaxy, the universe should look equally as big.
If you are surmising that a creator resides outside a physical finite universe, I'm afraid your assumption that the universe is finite may be wrong.
The Bible is the best evidence against Christianity. It is cited as the NO 1 reason people chose to either give up Christianity or not join it. People who read the Old Testament are so disgusted by this god, Yahweh that they want nothing to do with him. Even the Christians admit it:
Certain verses in the Bible do more to cause people to become atheists than help people love and follow God.
Interesting perspective, elyn. Yes religion does add a segment to culture, often a major one. I actually do not see atheism, being always a minor segment of most communities, either adding or subtracting anything to culture. It is a neutral effect. Have you come across atheism playing an active role in such a way in any of your studies?
My thought was actually far simpler.
If i believed, based on weather report, that there is 69% chance of rain, i will take my umbrella. If. If i disbelieve that it will rain because it is sunny right now, then i need to do nothing when i step out.
Belief in a divinity leads to action - of study of texts, prayer, worship. If you disbelieve divinity exists you need to do nothing.
If one is an atheist, how can it be an accusation? Why does it feel like an accusation? That might be something to think about.
If you ask many atheists what their goal is - they will tell you something like: "To have a world where the term 'atheist' is no longer needed."
There shouldn't even be a word for a lack of a belief in gods. Just like there is no word for people who don't believe in Santa Claus or UFOs or ghosts or Jewish space lasers or the trillions of other things people may or may not believe in.
What often angers we atheists is how so many people villify and demonize us and paint us as monsters simply because we don't believe in ancient Palestinian gods. I think it stands to reason we are just as moral as any Christian or Muslim or anyone else who adheres to a religion. Some of us simply do not have a desire to worship something - and, to be honest, I don't understand why a supposedly good god would demand so much praise and glory. But I won't harp on that.
But I do remember one day some years ago, I was coming down the stairs and heard my grandmother watching her usual Sunday preachers on television. But this particular preacher was thumping his Bible about this argument he had had with an atheist on social media the night before.
Of course, he was waving his Bible like some kind of weapon, pacing aggressively back and forth on the stage like a panther ready to pounce into the audience - and all the while he was roaring about this atheist who was allegedly very rude, very vulger, and very profane.
Well ... I don't necessarily believe that this preacher was really sitting around having a debate with a vulgar atheist. Instead, the whole story sounded like one of those anecdotes preachers love to use to either segue into their sermon - or to illustrate a point within a sermon - but wasn't necessarily true.
But we'll say, for the sake of argument, the preacher really did have this debate. I'll be the first to say that the behavior of said atheist was completely uncalled for. One can have a civil debate without the need for vulgarity. Fact is, there are good and bad people within every large group - atheists included.
Then came the bombshell. This preacher, who's blood vessels were popping out of his neck, went on to say that the very reason why this atheist was so vulgar and profane was --- because he was an atheist. I wanted to reach through the television and smack the nose right off his sweaty little face. How dare he?
But you see - this is why I'm not just an atheist, but an anti-theist. Prominent preachers and religious leaders have been telling tens of millions of people every Sunday how evil we atheists are.
Thus, you see, cb2008, this is why calling someone an "atheist" is almost the equivalent of calling someone a bad name - prehaps even a vulgar name - in the eyes of many believers. If you want to insult someone, yeah, accuse them of not believing. This is why, as you say, the term "atheist" has become an accusation. Preachers both famous and ordinary have been poisoning their congregations about atheists for YEARS. Probably even decades.
This preacher I just happened to overhear on television is just one example. I have been witness to several others - and have seen videos of famous Christian apologists misrepresenting atheists dozens of times.
There should BE no word for someone who doesn't believe in Yahweh. It's as simple as that. Christians need to realize that when we atheists are bombarded by the fact that polling data shows that we are the most mistrusted and hated demographic group in America - even more than gays, transgendered and, get this, even more than Islamic jihadists and terrorists (!!!) - can you understand why some of us atheists get rather ticked off? I can't remember the last time an atheist flew planes into buildings - or detinated a suicide vest at a crowded bus stop while shouting, "For science!" Can you? Can anyone?
Even on this forum, I've seen so many people misrepresent who we are and what we believe. It gets frustrating when we try to explain over and over what we atheists really believe - and it just doesn't sink in. Some of us are just tired of being treated as some kind of villain - as if we spend our time feeding Christians to lions. I won't lie to you. I really don't like the Christian religion. I don't like *any* religion that tells people to put God first in all things -- because I put real, living, feeling people first in all things. Even if God exists, he can take care of himself. If he can create entire universes from nothing, then he can stop acting like a crybaby if a real person receives some glory.
BUT ... I do not hate individual Christians. Most atheists have nothing against Christians at all. We don't sit around all day plotting the downfall of religion. And we certainly do not sit around writing up sermons to show everyone how bad and evil Christians are. I just wish I could say the same about Christians as it pertains to we atheists - but that TV preacher proves otherwise. Just because I don't like religion and what it does to people does not make me a bad person - or anyone else, for that matter. Unfortunately, long years of propaganda has made us atheists the worst kind of human being. Is it any wonder, then, why some of us just might take offense?
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