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what connotation words carry is to a large extent depends on the receiver. perhaps the connotation is even among Christians. It is not received the same way with all. speaking for myself if someone declares himself as atheist, happens, it raises neither positive nor negative connotation for me. not even curiosity. it is possible the emotional response is all in the atheists own mind. don’t you think atheism is as much indoctrination as religion is?
I've been on this forum a along time. I've listened to a lot of stories.
A lot of the people who have turned atheist, in America at least, appear to have done so after a gradual disillusionment with the religious doctrines that have been foisted upon them all of their lives. They've found too many inconsistencies, too many conflicting ideas, too many doubts, no evidence to support the religious claims.
Sometimes it is gradual over many years, sometimes it's one eureka moment.
Often, especially when I first happened across this forum, people who lived in deeply religious communities were afraid to admit they were atheist and came to this forum to have like minded people to speak to. People had come to the conclusion they were atheist entirely of their own volition and felt they were on their own.
Fortunately we don't seem to get so many of these people now since America is becoming more open minded about non-believers.
In the UK when and where I grew up, things were more like America is becoming now. People are allowed to make their own minds up.
I've been on this forum a along time. I've listened to a lot of stories.
A lot of the people who have turned atheist, in America at least, appear to have done so after a gradual disillusionment with the religious doctrines that have been foisted upon them all of their lives. They've found too many inconsistencies, too many conflicting ideas, too many doubts, no evidence to support the religious claims. Sometimes it is gradual over many years, sometimes it's one eureka moment.
Often, especially when I first happened across this forum, people who lived in deeply religious communities were afraid to admit they were atheist and came to this forum to have like minded people to speak to. People had come to the conclusion they were atheist entirely of their own volition and felt they were on their own.
Fortunately we don't seem to get so many of these people now since America is becoming more open minded about non-believers.
In the UK when and where I grew up, things were more like America is becoming now. People are allowed to make their own minds up.
Great post.
The bolded -- sometimes it's sorta both. In my case, growing doubts over decades and then an event that led to the "eureka moment". I actually call it the "Popeye moment"...that point when something happened to me and I said -- in regards to christianity -- "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more". That doesn't mean I can't still be convinced otherwise, but not when it's just the same old shovels full that they've been shoveling for centuries. The christians would need to demonstrate some NEW eureka moment for me to start to believe again.
I've been on this forum a along time. I've listened to a lot of stories.
A lot of the people who have turned atheist, in America at least, appear to have done so after a gradual disillusionment with the religious doctrines that have been foisted upon them all of their lives. They've found too many inconsistencies, too many conflicting ideas, too many doubts, no evidence to support the religious claims.
Sometimes it is gradual over many years, sometimes it's one eureka moment.
Often, especially when I first happened across this forum, people who lived in deeply religious communities were afraid to admit they were atheist and came to this forum to have like minded people to speak to. People had come to the conclusion they were atheist entirely of their own volition and felt they were on their own.
Fortunately we don't seem to get so many of these people now since America is becoming more open minded about non-believers.
In the UK when and where I grew up, things were more like America is becoming now. People are allowed to make their own minds up.
people change, that is the only constant. from belief to no belief, from indifference to religion and spirituality. one can turn to religious texts, teachings, seek a community or pursue spirituality in solitude. all options are available to seekers. if this and similar forums are the resources for those leaving religion then i don’t see why both cannot be described as indoctrination. Richard Dawkins is like a prophet of atheism, he is often quoted with reverence. His ant-Muslim statements are repeated as truth. Muslim women covering themselves is exemplified as some kind of hell they need to be delivered from, never mind the violence towards women right here and now. Add the sufferings of atheists because they are accused of atheism, here is a case for martyrdom.
people change, that is the only constant. from belief to no belief, from indifference to religion and spirituality. one can turn to religious texts, teachings, seek a community or pursue spirituality in solitude. all options are available to seekers. if this and similar forums are the resources for those leaving religion then i don’t see why both cannot be described as indoctrination. Richard Dawkins is like a prophet of atheism, he is often quoted with reverence. His ant-Muslim statements are repeated as truth. Muslim women covering themselves is exemplified as some kind of hell they need to be delivered from, never mind the violence towards women right here and now. Add the sufferings of atheists because they are accused of atheism, here is a case for martyrdom.
Nobody is claiming martyrdom, that's in your head because you make it abundantly clear that you don't like atheists. Seeking out like minded people doesn't make anyone a martyr.
You don't think people can possibly be capable of coming to decisions of their own accord without Dawkins help?
My brother announced he was atheist while still at high school after watching Carl Sagans Cosmos on TV. For him it was like one of the Eureka moments I describe. He saw the Universe as it is and that was it. I followed a few years later. Neither of us even heard of Dawkins or any of the so-called 'new atheists' such as Dawkins until decades later.
We did however live in an environment where we were allowed to think for ourselves.
Nobody is claiming martyrdom, that's in your head because you make it abundantly clear that you don't like atheists. Seeking out like minded people doesn't make anyone a martyr.
You don't think people can possibly be capable of coming to decisions of their own accord without Dawkins help?
My brother announced he was atheist while still at high school after watching Carl Sagans Cosmos on TV. For him it was like one of the Eureka moments I describe. He saw the Universe as it is and that was it. I followed a few years later. Neither of us even heard of Dawkins or any of the so-called 'new atheists' such as Dawkins until decades later.
We did however live in an environment where we were allowed to think for ourselves.
I did not say seeking community makes anyone a martyr. But the feeling of being persecuted, hated, accused in one's head can feel that way. I have already said i have neither positive nor negative feelings about atheists. I can repeat that as many times as needed if that helps. Atheists too may be indifferent to the religious and not judgemental at all. I am sure.
Everything else you state applies to those who choose to believe and seek spirituality as well. Every human being is capable of thinking for oneself. None of us are gifted in any special way for thinking one way or another.
I did not say seeking community makes anyone a martyr. But the feeling of being persecuted, hated, accused can feel that way. I have already said i have neither positive nor negative feelings about atheists. I can repeat that as many times as needed if that helps. Atheists too may be indifferent to the religious and not judgemental at all. I am sure.
Everything else you state applies to those who choose to believe and seek spirituality as well. Every human being is capable of thinking for oneself. None of us are gifted in any special way for thinking one way or another.
That exactly right.
Most people are not gifted in any special way (though some people are).*
We are, the vast majority of us, a product of our environment.
If I had been raised immersed in a fundamentalist Christian environment I may well be Christian now.
If I had been raised immersed in a fundamentalist Islamic environment I may well be Muslim now.
etc
I think we are all aware of this. And if we are not we should be. People should be aware of it and think hard about that. What beliefs really are your own? As long as your imposed beliefs have served you well and you are a good and kind person, then great.
By extension you could also say the same about me and I accept that.
Britain has a very large atheist population and so it's no surprise that my brother and myself may have at some point been atheist. Chances were reasonably high even though we went to schools where religious education was mandatory as are all schools in the UK, and we went to church now and again.
Things HAVE been different over there for a long time though. The USA is getting there but actually I think politics is the new religion here and I despair at the lack of thought, lack of rationality and followers of nonsense I see here.
* I should say that some people are indeed uniquely gifted in the way they think. These are stand out individuals that go onto be the great thinkers and philosophers and scientists and inventors and the like.
Richard Dawkins is like a prophet of atheism, he is often quoted with reverence. His ant-Muslim statements are repeated as truth.
I call BS on every word of that. Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. He points out nonsense when he sees it- such as creationism.
He, and Sam Harris criticize the ideas of Islam and Islamism. They are not "anti-Muslim". They have the courage to publicly criticize bad and harmful ideas, even though it could get them killed by crazy Islamists.
If we're being honest here, it's the people that support fundamentalist Islamism, that are the most anti-Muslim. Anyone who looks at all the Muslims who are being harmed in Islamist countries and defends that, they are part of the problem.
* I should say that some people are indeed uniquely gifted in the way they think. These are stand out individuals that go onto be the great thinkers and philosophers and scientists and inventors and the like.
I agree. I also think the choice we make to seek spirituality or atheism is also part of our individual mental make up, and a gift if it serves us well: Gives us joy and happiness that we are able to project on to others, all well and good.
I did not say seeking community makes anyone a martyr. But the feeling of being persecuted, hated, accused in one's head can feel that way. I have already said i have neither positive nor negative feelings about atheists. I can repeat that as many times as needed if that helps. Atheists too may be indifferent to the religious and not judgemental at all. I am sure.
Everything else you state applies to those who choose to believe and seek spirituality as well. Every human being is capable of thinking for oneself. None of us are gifted in any special way for thinking one way or another.
The bolded...that is not how many of your posts have sounded.
what connotation words carry is to a large extent depends on the receiver. perhaps the connotation is even among Christians. It is not received the same way with all. speaking for myself if someone declares himself as atheist, happens, it raises neither positive nor negative connotation for me. not even curiosity. it is possible the emotional response is all in the atheists own mind.
don’t you think atheism is as much indoctrination as religion is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
I don't think people should believe in anything. Because, the things that are actually real, you don't need to believe in. You wake up in the morning and you observe that the sun rises. If any religious claims were real, then, people wouldn't need to believe in them. The attraction to/the need for/the belief in a thing, shows us that that thing is very likely not true.
To answer your question, I refer to a statement made by the OP. It's a great statement because, for me, it tries to capture the problem with believing. When it comes to believing, there is a push that something is either right or it is wrong. So if something is attractive, such as an afterlife, it must be right and we should believe it. The OP warns against this. But I don't think attraction or belief is the problem, because as we have discussed, it adds a layer of culture to human activities.
The issue arises when we are only given the option to call something right or wrong. There can be other labeling options. The OP mentioned one - observations. The other option is the ability to judge the observation. We can ask what the observation means to us. This is preference.
The easiest example would be death. Humans can observe that living things die. They don't come back to life. It is a preference to believe that there is an afterlife because we can't observe it. Yet, somebody may interject with "you're wrong, there is no afterlife" (because, again, it cannot be observed). But being right or wrong should not be the only option in which to judge this conversation. Recognizing that humans have a preferred way of seeing things is another option.
I think there is a potential for any kind of teaching to become indoctrination. If a statement is being positioned as right or wrong, true or untrue, when we could have just viewed it as a preference, then there may be an attempt at indoctrination. I think many times, it is not done on purpose. It happens because of the limited choices we have to label something or the limited approaches to how we handle a conversation.
Last edited by elyn02; 04-04-2023 at 07:13 PM..
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