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Last Thanksgiving I was at my parent's house and they had invited some good friends of theirs over. They are really nice people and the guy's wife who came over is one of the happiest and chipper people I know. Now, no one in my family is really very religious. I suspect my parents believe in God but I don't think they could even define for you what they believe in. This couple, I presume, feels much the same way. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I think I remember her telling me about her "New Age" beliefs. Anyway, right as we were about to eat, there was one of those uncomfortable pauses as my parents know that neither I or my sister or brother believe in God, this couple wasn't really into it, and my parents could care less. Typically, when we are by ourselves at the Thanksgiving table, we make the same joke every year. "Who wants to say Grace?" and then I'll say "GRACE! Let's eat!" and we all dig in.
Anyway, this woman could sense the uncomfortable situation and she tried to break the ice and she said "Let's all go around the table and say what we're thankful for." She didn't say to who or to what but she just said "What we're thankful for."
I think the most candid and honest response was from my wife who has very little sense of the American culture of "Thankfulness" in the traditional sense. As the questioning got around to her, she looked at me as if she didn't understand what the word "Thankful" meant and I thought I'd have to try and translate into Japanese what it meant. But, then, I realized that this notion of "Thankfulness" in the way we interpret it here in the West is so much different that there really isn't a way to translate it properly. It didn't connect to her. She asked me later "Why do I have to be thankful and to what?" It was an honest, genuine question that she really had no sensation of direction on. It was a completely foreign idea to her as is organized religion.
She must not have been raised in the traditions of Shinto.
You could have told here our Thanksgiving is like the Shogatsu / Gantan-sai. The Japanese New Year where thanks is given to Kami (spirits) for the blessings of the harvest and health in the New Year.
She must not have been raised in the traditions of Shinto.
You could have told here our Thanksgiving is like the Shogatsu / Gantan-sai. The Japanese New Year where thanks is given to Kami (spirits) for the blessings of the harvest and health in the New Year.
godspeed,
freedom
Shinto... No. When I went to her parent's house there was a small Buddhist shrine but it seemed so much more of a traditional thing than a religious thing. My wife and I never really discuss religion although she has mentioned to me that Christianity seems like one of the scariest things on Earth. She really gets freaked out when clips come on TV showing people falling down as the "demons" are released.
My point was that the concept of thankfulness tends to change from culture to culture. Most people in our society tend to link thankfulness with thanking God. I'm not sure how much my wife knows about Shinto as in Tokyo it seems much less prevalent than in the more rural areas of the country. My wife was born and raised in Tokyo. While I'm sure she is somewhat familiar with the Shinto religion, it doesn't dominate society in the same fashion that Christianity dominates ours. In other words, while I am somewhat familiar with some Jewish traditions, because it really doesn't play a dominant part of our society (unless you are to live in a largely Jewish community) I may know the names of some of the Jewish holidays but I really don't know all of what they stand for. Does that make sense?
Although that is an excellent point, freedom, and I see what you're getting at.
Shinto... No. When I went to her parent's house there was a small Buddhist shrine but it seemed so much more of a traditional thing than a religious thing. My wife and I never really discuss religion although she has mentioned to me that Christianity seems like one of the scariest things on Earth. She really gets freaked out when clips come on TV showing people falling down as the "demons" are released.
My point was that the concept of thankfulness tends to change from culture to culture. Most people in our society tend to link thankfulness with thanking God. I'm not sure how much my wife knows about Shinto as in Tokyo it seems much less prevalent than in the more rural areas of the country. My wife was born and raised in Tokyo. While I'm sure she is somewhat familiar with the Shinto religion, it doesn't dominate society in the same fashion that Christianity dominates ours. In other words, while I am somewhat familiar with some Jewish traditions, because it really doesn't play a dominant part of our society (unless you are to live in a largely Jewish community) I may know the names of some of the Jewish holidays but I really don't know all of what they stand for. Does that make sense?
Although that is an excellent point, freedom, and I see what you're getting at.
Most believers feel the same way your wife feels about the Demon-strations of churchianity, its just creepy. I'll add that the scriptures i read actually teach against those outward expression and they actually say "because they will think you mad". How's that for prophetic...lol...
So like most metropoli', religion is an old fashioned expression in Tokyo. Modernism and technology have become the norm?
Do they have terms like Atheist or Agnostic?
Most believers feel the same way your wife feels about the Demon-strations of churchianity, its just creepy. I'll add that the scriptures i read actually teach against those outward expression and they actually say "because they will think you mad". How's that for prophetic...lol...
So like most metropoli', religion is an old fashioned expression in Tokyo. Modernism and technology have become the norm?
Do they have terms like Atheist or Agnostic?
godspeed,
freedom
You know, I can't say I honestly ever had a religious discussion my entire time in Japan. I really don't even know if they have terms such as Atheist or Agnostic. It never struck me to ask the question. I'll have to ask my wife.
Religion is indeed an old fashioned expression in Tokyo. I have a picture of me somewhere on my hard drive standing outside of a beautiful Shinto temple. It's so quaint and quiet looking. If you were able to pan to the right of the picture you would see the metropolis of Tokyo built all around it with all of its technological splendor in full force. While they have certainly kept some of the most beautiful religious icons intact, religion is not a dominant part of the society - although I did find out through my wife recently that the religious organizations in Japan do not have to pay taxes either.
But that is not your answer, i am looking for your answer to where thankfulness, pride, and the unseen energies of emotion come from.
But you already blew me off when I told you that what we know about feelings comes from sociology, evolutionary biology and neuroscience. Unless I misread you, your rebuttal was pretty much "oh but it can't answer everything". If you are actually interested in the opinion a non-theist then the answer to every question you ask will either be tied in with those fields of science or be "We don't know yet"
I'm also afraid I don't know what you mean by "unseen energies of emotion"
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Originally Posted by freedom
Believe it or not, i was actually wanting to keep god out of the discussion and find where the foundation of Atheist opinion originates from those that call themselves Atheist's. How the unseen emotions and thoughts are relevent to your realities. Some Atheists operate by similar theistic principles based on these unseen emotions and feelings.
Again, what are these unseen emotions? and if nobody knows about them, then why would you expect an answer other than "I don't know what you are talking about".
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
Okay, so some Atheists don't know the fill in the gap questions and relate them to scientific revelation, just like some Theists don't know the fill in the gap questions and relate them to God and what He may or may not reveal.
This makes no sense to me, can you please rephrase it?
good post. having seen many atheists posts on CDF for some time expressing gratitutude, but to who or to what?
a god that does not exist?
You know that might actually be a reason for some people. I spent all my youth saying grace at meals, being grateful in church and generally being grateful to god. Do you think that maybe not all that conditioning has left the crevasses of my mind?
But you already blew me off when I told you that what we know about feelings comes from sociology, evolutionary biology and neuroscience. Unless I misread you, your rebuttal was pretty much "oh but it can't answer everything". If you are actually interested in the opinion a non-theist then the answer to every question you ask will either be tied in with those fields of science or be "We don't know yet"
I didn't think i was blowing you off, i replied with something like... our feelings are explained by those sciences but they do not originate from the sciences... so the i don't know answer is more accurate to my question.
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Again, what are these unseen emotions? and if nobody knows about them, then why would you expect an answer other than "I don't know what you are talking about".
A person can be thankful and no one else can know about it... it is kept to themselves and the feeling is still real to the person feeling it. Therefore it is unseen.
Love for someone can be unseen, as well as hate. Though the evidence of these things can be observed to those that are in tune with the repurcussions of vibrational thoughts and feelings. Women are very in tune with sensing (intuition) a persons intent, or caliber of character. Men seem to have to work harder to recognize the nuance of energies but still can feel them when amplified, as in a fight or flee scenario.
The explanation i was trying to deliver to you regarding non-theist and theist is that there are voids of knowing in both disciplines, and successes in both... its a buyer beware scenario.
I didn't think i was blowing you off, i replied with
A person can be thankful and no one else can know about it... it is kept to themselves and the feeling is still real to the person feeling it. Therefore it is unseen.
Ahh. I think I get what you mean now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
Love for someone can be unseen, as well as hate. Though the evidence of these things can be observed to those that are in tune with the repurcussions of vibrational thoughts and feelings. Women are very in tune with sensing (intuition) a persons intent, or caliber of character. Men seem to have to work harder to recognize the nuance of energies but still can feel them when amplified, as in a fight or flee scenario.
Well as you probably guessed, these feelings tend to have a wild, animalistic nature to them. As you said, fear which makes us run or instinctively stay still when confronted with danger(possibly a lion). How hatred can bring out the worst in people. How love, friendship and laughter almost seem to turn adults back into children. How hunger or thirst take over our thoughts and overrides every other desire. How guilt at having wronged somebody leads to asking for forgiveness and thus reducing the chances of the person cutting off ties with you, ties which could mutually benefit each other in the future.
All these feelings fit elegantly withing our earth but sadly(or thankfully) we have advanced to the point where most of them seem out of place.....#&%! I just had a deja vu...can't think atm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
The explanation i was trying to deliver to you regarding non-theist and theist is that there are voids of knowing in both disciplines, and successes in both... its a buyer beware scenario.
So are you saying that Christianity for example doesn't have all the answers?
Well as you probably guessed, these feelings tend to have a wild, animalistic nature to them. As you said, fear which makes us run or instinctively stay still when confronted with danger(possibly a lion). How hatred can bring out the worst in people. How love, friendship and laughter almost seem to turn adults back into children. How hunger or thirst take over our thoughts and overrides every other desire. How guilt at having wronged somebody leads to asking for forgiveness and thus reducing the chances of the person cutting off ties with you, ties which could mutually benefit each other in the future.
All these feelings fit elegantly withing our earth but sadly(or thankfully) we have advanced to the point where most of them seem out of place.....#&%! I just had a deja vu...can't think atm.
Aren't they still relevant to everyday, in industry (invention), in media (morality/ or the lack thereof), in family (bonds) friendship (either selfish or not)?
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So are you saying that Christianity for example doesn't have all the answers?
Yes... and i am also saying that secularism does not as well.
godspeed,
freedom
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