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You said you come from a city blah blah blah. Well I come from a city where most people can afford a house and several cars. I come from a city where I do not have to worry about getting up early in the morning to move my car for street cleaning, trash/snow removal,etc. I come from a city where we do not have to worry about paying tolls everywhere. I come from a city where I dont have to worry about driving around for 45mins trying to find a parking space. I come from a city where we generally do not have to worry about REAL SNOW.
In this day in age something is wrong with grown people 30+ having to live in an apartment because they cant afford a house, something is wrong with riding in dirty subways trains with trash everywhere, I find something wrong in paying extremely high taxes, horrible winter weather, etc. The moral of the city is if you depend on heavy rail move near a Marta station, if not stay in Ny. I could make the same thread in the NY forum about how Ny can do this or that better but I choose not to live in Ny so it doesnt matter.
You said you come from a city blah blah blah. Well I come from a city where most people can afford a house and several cars. I come from a city where I do not have to worry about getting up early in the morning to move my car for street cleaning, trash/snow removal,etc. I come from a city where we do not have to worry about paying tolls everywhere. I come from a city where I dont have to worry about driving around for 45mins trying to find a parking space. I come from a city where we generally do not have to worry about REAL SNOW.
In this day in age something is wrong with grown people 30+ having to live in an apartment because they cant afford a house, something is wrong with riding in dirty subways trains with trash everywhere, I find something wrong in paying extremely high taxes, horrible winter weather, etc. The moral of the city is if you depend on heavy rail move near a Marta station, if not stay in Ny. I could make the same thread in the NY forum about how Ny can do this or that better but I choose not to live in Ny so it doesnt matter.
I understand You...I guess...But Ur Jumping the Gun here a bit...Do folks in Downtown Atlanta/Midtown/Buckhead not live in Apartments that probably Cost more than ur House is worth? or Just Aprtments in general?...People here in Ny live in Apartments becuase Of the Density that it Has and it makes Economical Sense to Build Up instead of Out ...This is DIRECTLY why Atlanta suffers from the sprawl it does...The Entire Metro Area of Atlanta is only 5 Million people...That can fit on 2 OF OUR Boros Alone..with the other 3 still available...Yes we pay higher taxes,have some dirty Trains( Like MARTA is so clean you can eat off the floor? HA!)...People who coose to own a car in NY should deal with the hassles Becuase a car IS NOT a neccesity to survive here...Im not here to bash Atlanta...I love the place..I just think it Could be do MUCH MUCH Better on it Transportation Options...
This is where our politics come into play. Local officials in the suburban counties do not support transit. Many of the powerful constituents and special interest groups in the suburban counties do not support regional transit for fear that "those people" from Atlanta will have more access to their "exclusive" communities. It's nothing short of blatant racism and is one of the most glaring vestiges of our Old South heritage.
GDOT is in the transportation business, so even if people vote transit down, they still have a responsibility to provide Georgians with an adequate transportation system. In short this means that nearly all focus will be on roads. Roads will just continue to be widened over time, with no focus on transit. Quality of life will be diminished for anyone whose house will be mowed down for road widening and new roads, those who do not drive, and people whose health is directly tied to our air quality. It is a shame that a city that wants to compare itself to the big dogs (NY, LA, CHI, SF) can't even get a decent transit system going.
Do folks in Downtown Atlanta/Midtown/Buckhead not live in Apartments that probably Cost more than ur House is worth?
Well, I don't want to veer too far off the subject here, but you brought it up....
There may be some people who have condos in midtown or Buckhead that are worth more than the traditional suburban house. The thing that's really different about New York....and not just to Atlanta, but to EVERY other major U.S. city as far as I know....is that you can live in an apartment for your entire life and still just be renting it. Nobody here would ever do that. If you're going to make a lifelong commitment to living in the urban part of the city, you dive in and buy a condo, not rent an apartment for the rest of your life.
I know New York is not set up that way. I mainly brought it up to show that New York is literally an island unto itself. It operates in a manner that is completely different from any other U.S. city, so comparisons to it are really fairly meaningless. I can't think of another place where you would hire an agent just to help you find an apartment. New York has its own rulebook for just about everything.
This is where our politics come into play. Local officials in the suburban counties do not support transit. Many of the powerful constituents and special interest groups in the suburban counties do not support regional transit for fear that "those people" from Atlanta will have more access to their "exclusive" communities. It's nothing short of blatant racism and is one of the most glaring vestiges of our Old South heritage.
GDOT is in the transportation business, so even if people vote transit down, they still have a responsibility to provide Georgians with an adequate transportation system. In short this means that nearly all focus will be on roads. Roads will just continue to be widened over time, with no focus on transit. Quality of life will be diminished for anyone whose house will be mowed down for road widening and new roads, those who do not drive, and people whose health is directly tied to our air quality. It is a shame that a city that wants to compare itself to the big dogs (NY, LA, CHI, SF) can't even get a decent transit system going.
I love This Reply!!! 'Those people" lol..Its blatant raciscm jus like u say man.. And this Frame of mindset is The WRONG one...Here in NYC "Those people"..stay in the City..All those who use the Commuter rails here are Primarily Non-Minority...So this fear is Unfounded..Actually The situation in Atlanta is an intresting One.... MORE minorities Own Homes In ATL In Numbers that will NEVER be seen here in NY!... Only Until I Moved to Atlanta Have I EVER seen Ghetto/Hood SUBDIVSIONS! With two story homes and a driveway! lmao....
here thats what the Projects are for! SO "THOSE PEOPLE" They fear so much ARE ALREADY THERE!!!...and this is WITHOUT the trains...So whats to be so afraid of???.. lol And Its the Grace of God and Pure stroke of Luck that Hartsfield-Jackson Turned out to be so imprtant as it is...Atlanta doesnt deserve it...You come into a world class Airport...yet cant get anywhere from it once u land excpet Downtown and thas Thanks to MARTA...But Georgia talks about Binding together as a whole n all ...How About Connecting it together???..Lets face it...With the exception of Savannah and its Ports...Without ATL..Georgia Would be about Important as Lets say...Mississippi....So with that being said...GDOT Should focus more on Rails and Get These Conservative Bumpkins outta office...SO ATL DOSENT BECOME THE" FORMER CITY OF ATL"...LIKE WHAT IS SLOWLY HAPPENING TO DETROIT!!!
Well, I don't want to veer too far off the subject here, but you brought it up....
There may be some people who have condos in midtown or Buckhead that are worth more than the traditional suburban house. The thing that's really different about New York....and not just to Atlanta, but to EVERY other major U.S. city as far as I know....is that you can live in an apartment for your entire life and still just be renting it. Nobody here would ever do that. If you're going to make a lifelong commitment to living in the urban part of the city, you dive in and buy a condo, not rent an apartment for the rest of your life.
WHAT DIFFRENCE DOES IT MAKE WHETHER OR NOT YOU RENT OR "BUY" ???..UNLESS YOU WALKED INTO YOUR BROKERS OFFICE WITH A BLANK CHECK AND "BOUGHT" YOU CONDO...THEN UR POINT IS INVALID...DO YOU NOT STILL NOT HAVE TO MAKE SOME KIND OF MONTHLY PAYMENT ON YOUR CONDO???...RENT,MORTGAGE,WHATEVER...ITS THE SAME THING MAN!!
CELEBRITIES AND THE WELL HEELED "BUY" THEIRS..EVRYONE ELSE RENTS!!
I know New York is not set up that way. I mainly brought it up to show that New York is literally an island unto itself. It operates in a manner that is completely different from any other U.S. city, so comparisons to it are really fairly meaningless. I can't think of another place where you would hire an agent just to help you find an apartment. New York has its own rulebook for just about everything.
And yes NY does its own thing but it can still be compared to Other cities...I can think of plenty od cities where You would need one...Anywhere in the WORLD where the population is an the Neighborhood of 10 million People..Im pretty sure NY Aint by itself in this category!
Excellent points, tony. Yes, New York has awesome rail, but for when you do have to drive or take a cab, tolls, tolls and more tolls. Plus the traffic is awful. Have you ever tried to ride a cab from Harlem to Battery Park? I bet it could take half a day.
I'm not positive, but think about conservatism for a moment. Mostly, it embraces the ideals of capitalism. In a city like Atlanta that is super spread out, even over different counties, you get to a point where you have to have the wealthy subsidizing the poor, which goes against capitalism.
Suppose a major rail plan was adopted. It would have to be subsidized however they decided to do it, probably through a sales tax, maybe through some property taxes too, but I don't know if that has any precedent. Anyway, regardless of how the tax is implemented, it's inevitable that the wealthy will end up with a disproportionate amount of the burden. Pretty soon you would have people in East Cobb, Sandy Springs, and Johns Creek wondering why they are subsidizing a train to Convington and Douglasville.
So I think that's why you see the idea sort of going against the conservative ideal. What's interesting is that a lot of conservatives support the idea of a fair tax, and if public transit is funded via sales tax, it would fit the parameters of a fair tax....so you could make that argument as well.
Either way, I think this is the more compelling reason some people are against the idea of mass transit. They don't want to be forced to subsidize something that they don't see as benefitting them directly. A lot of people want to assume these people are racists because that makes it so much easier to paint them as being "wrong." In reality, they are not wrong, they just see the situation differently. I'm sure maybe some of them are racist, but we can't exactly point a finger and say that's why Cobb and Gwinnett defeated mass transit in 1990, or whenever it was.
I feel a little bit of the same way, but not fully. I wouldn't mind paying a penny sales tax for mass transit, but it darn well better benefit me. I certainly don't want to pay so they can build a train to Covington....if I pay, they better build one close to my house. The big problem becomes how to keep it sustainable. What happens if in 10 years expenses go up or ridership goes down, and now we need a 2 penny tax to keep it going. What about 3? I think a lot of people get frightened not with what it costs to build, but how much it might end up costing in the future. I guess at a certain point you could say just close it down and let it rust, but nobody wants to do that.
An interesting question is what would benefit Atlanta more? To create more lines and stops intown, or to extend in straight lines further out? I think the latter would see more ridership, but those who fancy not needing a car to do anything would probably argue. Personally, I don't see mass transit in a city like Atlanta to ever be a replacement for a personal vehicle. I see it as a way to commute to a few specific places and ease traffic congestion or major arteries, but the majority of citizens in this city will never ride a train to Publix to get groceries or to their kids' soccer games. We were not designed as that kind of city and never will be.
I Respect Your Opinion Man...At least ur somewhat Agreeable about bringin Rail here...It Just Really Annoying to hear Someone ACTUALLY COMPLAIN About a Penny...I mean Really???...Are Metro Residents living Hand to Mouth in Pure Freakin Poverty??? WHAT THE FVCK IS A PENNY OR TWO???? I THINK IT SHOULD BE 50 CENTS!..Then we could get ALOT More done Quicky and be Done with The whole Issue of Transporation all together!!..Then we focus on the school system and Etc...Now we ALL KNOW That All goverments mis manage and Fvuk up The Money into the 10s of Billions...So whats a few pennies for something you can actually use and benefit you everyday???...I agree though that Atlanta Will forever be Car Driven And Thats Totally Cool...But even You have to admit that The Situation is Only getting worse...and then... COMPLETE GRIDLOCK Will Become a Daily Thing Inside the Perimeter ON ALL 3 Insterstates...Even New York WILL NEVER suffer from Such A Public Disaster...Becuase of our Trains...Period. The Atlanta Traffic Time Bomb Is Quickly Approaching Ignition Buddy And You Know It....
I love This Reply!!! 'Those people" lol..Its blatant raciscm jus like u say man.. And this Frame of mindset is The WRONG one...Here in NYC "Those people"..stay in the City..All those who use the Commuter rails here are Primarily Non-Minority...So this fear is Unfounded..Actually The situation in Atlanta is an intresting One.... MORE minorities Own Homes In ATL In Numbers that will NEVER be seen here in NY!... Only Until I Moved to Atlanta Have I EVER seen Ghetto/Hood SUBDIVSIONS! With two story homes and a driveway! lmao....
here thats what the Projects are for! SO "THOSE PEOPLE" They fear so much ARE ALREADY THERE!!!...and this is WITHOUT the trains...So whats to be so afraid of???.. lol And Its the Grace of God and Pure stroke of Luck that Hartsfield-Jackson Turned out to be so imprtant as it is...Atlanta doesnt deserve it...You come into a world class Airport...yet cant get anywhere from it once u land excpet Downtown and thas Thanks to MARTA...But Georgia talks about Binding together as a whole n all ...How About Connecting it together???..Lets face it...With the exception of Savannah and its Ports...Without ATL..Georgia Would be about Important as Lets say...Mississippi....So with that being said...GDOT Should focus more on Rails and Get These Conservative Bumpkins outta office...SO ATL DOSENT BECOME THE" FORMER CITY OF ATL"...LIKE WHAT IS SLOWLY HAPPENING TO DETROIT!!!
Ok I was trying not to get drawn in by all of these aggressive comments... but this is just too much.
Yes, we have a city where black people can actually own houses and live peacefully in nice subdivisions if they choose to and don't have to be pinned up in projects.... Get over it! Black neighborhoods don't have to be ghetto-hoods either.
Technically, there are parts of NY where minorities own homes as well.
Also, NYC isn't all just tall buildings.... many people forget most of the 8 million people that live in the city (not to count the nearly double that are in suburban area) actually live in row homes or old town houses... but actual houses nonetheless in the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn (aprox 7 million). Alot of it isn't about building up... it is simply about not wasting a single little bit of land over a wide area. Of course many people do rent and live in smaller mid-rises as well...especially closer to Manhattan.
One way Atlanta and NYC is actually similar (although NYC is much bigger on scale)... most the people truly building... up, up, and up are living in the very central part of the city...and... are paying a premium to be there in the very core. In both cases you can own a cheaper home along with most the population... on the ground.. in the city just not in the core of downtown/midtown (buckhead, perimeter center, Brooklyn heights, jersey city, etc..)
At the end of the day the basic difference is what parts were built pre-car and post-car. Even in the NY region once the car was around all the surrounding areas began becoming much more suburban. NYC and other older cities had the advantage of building much of their mass transit during an era when most couldn't commute via car... mass transit was literally the only option in town. This means many paid very much to ride it.
The reason I point this out is cities back then had the capital cost of rather expensive mass transit projects paid privately through fares. Cities built post-car don't have the ability. Even, today all cities both older cities like NYC, and newer sunbelt cities like Atlanta are having huge -capital- funding problems to set up completely new and expansive systems. They are all aggressively looking for setting up new sources of funding as well (ie tax allocation districts, community improvement districts, etc...)
And to be far... during the same eras in time NYC hasn't invested much in their transit system. It was poorly maintained during the late 70s, 80s, and 90s. There weren't that many major expansions and it was mostly an aging system of a previous era, but that still had that aging system of the previous era to use.
In many ways Atlanta, along with DC, SF, MIA, and Baltimore did a great deal earlier on in the 70s and 80s to implement the capital costs of transit through public taxing. So while I am actually just as frustrated with the situation Atlanta is in as you are, I do have to say...whoa, hold up here man! NYC had advantages (in time/history) that we did not to become what it is today. Even, once we go full speed ahead with funding we have about 50+ years of capital costs to deal with in an era where it has to be done through public taxing vs. high fares/private investment.
Also, as much as I want more public transit in Atlanta and will still argue for it... you can't discount roads and highways as making our economy work as well. Atlanta, along with many other major and sunbelt cities were largely built by that and have done very well for themselves.
At the end of the day what is important is we have a city that can functionally move people and goods effectively regardless of the mode used. I would say until we drew back transportation funding in the 90s we were doing just fine with that, even if some don't like the roads vs transit balance.
As for your airport comments... it wasn't a stroke of luck. It was geographic positioning and the economy of Atlanta together made Hartsfield what it is today. It is equidistant between Chicago and Miami...and DC/NYC/Boston and Dallas/Houston. It gives us the distinct privledge of saying you can fly to most of the nation's population within 2 hours. In other words... we are the in the middle of all the current major population centers, excluding the west coast and it makes us a natural hub.
Geography also explains why we were are a major railroad and highway hub as well. It is quite literally the reason for our existence. We are the northern most location goods can be shipped to the Midwest/Chicago or the Northeast/NYC without crossing the Appalachians. That also makes us a place that can get materials and goods cheaper from multiple regions, which is why Atlanta flourished when the railroads were built here.
As far as your general Georgia comments...well I'm sorry but its just silly... You pretty much said ... well except for over half your state your a much smaller and more rural state... no kidding, Sherlock!
You'd think upstate NY and NYC are always getting along so peachy after some of these comments....
And to be fair to the rural and smaller cities of our state... comparing us with Mississippi... even without Atlanta we have 2 million more people and double the state GDP than that of Mississippi. Georgia and Atlanta much like NY State and NYC have most of its people located in and GDP created in their respective largest city.
This is where our politics come into play. Local officials in the suburban counties do not support transit. Many of the powerful constituents and special interest groups in the suburban counties do not support regional transit for fear that "those people" from Atlanta will have more access to their "exclusive" communities. It's nothing short of blatant racism and is one of the most glaring vestiges of our Old South heritage.
GDOT is in the transportation business, so even if people vote transit down, they still have a responsibility to provide Georgians with an adequate transportation system. In short this means that nearly all focus will be on roads. Roads will just continue to be widened over time, with no focus on transit. Quality of life will be diminished for anyone whose house will be mowed down for road widening and new roads, those who do not drive, and people whose health is directly tied to our air quality. It is a shame that a city that wants to compare itself to the big dogs (NY, LA, CHI, SF) can't even get a decent transit system going.
Actually Local officials in the suburban counties or suburban leaders do support transit how else do you think the finial wish list pass by the ARC with out rejection. The ARC itself is made of leaders from area across the metro. It's not about being NY, LA, CHI, or SF it's having infrastructural that fits the metro population, good infrastructure attract business and etc.
But your right about the special interest groups in the suburban counties do not support regional transit. It's not racism but it some type of prejudice, of something going on. The whole ideal is failed because "their exclusive communities." have "those people" living there already, and they will go there with or out transit improvements. This is metro Atlanta most major cities immigrants come to the city first then they work they way to the Suburbs, in Atlanta they start off in the Suburbs.
The other part of why, I said I don't understand why some conservative are against transit is because politics is ignorance. Some time people get lost in ideology and lose them self. It's the bandwagon effect, many conservative are against transit because they are told if they are not, then aren't real conservative. But it's like that, why do if someone believe in American exceptionalism in feign policy or again't abortion got be against improving regional transit?
Instance before the tea party spoke out, How many of yall knew they were going to be against it?
It's not "a joke" but more of a "compromise". It's hard to convince people OTP to support any sort of rail expansion... so they get their road projects and ITP gets rail expansions and improvements.
Personally, I think GDOT needs to be focusing their attention on the commuter rail plan they put together for the Atlanta metro... It's a good plan, but like all plans in this state, they sit on a shelf collecting dust because nobody has the political will to figure out how to fund it. The HOT lane system is not going so well for them, so maybe they should try something different once...
And by the way, it isn't called a "transit plan"... it's a TRANSPORTATION referendum.
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