Vote No on July 31 - Stop Taxing the Middle Class/Poor Unjustly (Atlanta: hotel, transfer)

[GeorgiaLakeSearch]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Many of those in the suburbs see MARTA as a way for criminals to commit crimes. What they don't know is that I have never seen anybody ride the train or bus with a flat screen TV under their arm.

Because many of the Republicans that supported the vote for the Transportation Referendum are now doing a 180 because of political pressure. What about the politicians on the round table that unanimously approved teh list, now they are doing a 180 because they are scared of the tea baggers.

I always think that also! I previously lived in Ansley Park which is walkable to MARTA and we did not have extra crime. And let me tell you there are better things to steal in Ansley Park then St. Marlo!

I am Republican voted for Mayor Reed and support all transportation spending. We need transportation or we will not be able to compete with other cities. It is funny all of the intown(where more originals/southerns live) people want transportation but the exurban transplants are against it.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Where are the crosstabs that yield such conclusions? What I read was:

"Only Fulton and DeKalb now provide significant support with a combined 50 percent in favor and 32 percent opposed to the proposal that is estimated to raise more than $6 billion for transportation projects, airports, parks, sidewalks and other amenities, while generating economic development."

It's a known fact that Fulton and DeKalb are two of the least conservative counties in the area.

Oh hey look, one site does have the crosstabs: Republicans--Oppose by a 71-21 margin; Democrats support it 50-32. (And don't even THINK of trying to convince us that the Tea Party isn't a large subset of the Republican Party, because it is.)

Did you look at the information? The WSB poll showed that even in Dekalb and Fulton counties, support was below 50%. When you consider that Democrats make up a majority in those counties...the weighting is even more significant.

It also showed that how ever you break down the demographics, no group supports this thing beyond 50%, not blacks, not whites, not Democrats, not Republicans.

As I said....DOA.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Cobb has had a SPLOST dedicated to transportation for a few years now which was just renewed. Projects like the Macland Rd extension, Barrett Pkwy and Roswell Rd widening are currently being funded from the SPLOST, along with many other smaller projects like bridge repairs/replacement and road paving. We get more bang for the buck for our own tax revenue here in Cobb without the political downside, and many of the projects proposed for Cobb would/could be in the next transportation SPLOST.

It's too bad counties don't have the opportunity to opt out and go their own way. If Cobb is content handling things on its own, why shouldn't it?

I've said all along that there's no reason to cram transit down Cobb's throat if the people there don't want it. Many folks are perfectly fine with driving. The fact is that the vast majority of Cobb commutes are intra-county and most of them are not very long.

For those who live elsewhere and work, go to school or shop in Cobb County, well, let them drive, too. They are choosing to go there, and Cobb residents should not be forced to subsidize their visits.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by arjay57

It's too bad counties don't have the opportunity to opt out and go their own way. If Cobb is content handling things on its own, why shouldn't it?

I've said all along that there's no reason to cram transit down Cobb's throat if the people there don't want it. Many folks are perfectly fine with driving. The fact is that the vast majority of Cobb commutes are intra-county and most of them are not very long.

For those who live elsewhere and work, go to school or shop in Cobb County, well, let them drive, too. They are choosing to go there, and Cobb residents should not be forced to subsidize their visits.

And I think that's part of the poor execution around this plan, that it's winner take all and they try to force 10 very different counties into one plan.

When you look at the project list for Cobb, the only item that really requires any coordination or cooperation with another county would be the $600 million express bus, since there would be some right of way or infrastructure necessary in Fulton County. Now maybe I'm wrong, but if that project was deemed important and necessary to Cobb County, I'm sure that the two counties could work out how to do it without some kind of uber committee or 10 county plan. The rest of the TSPLOST projects for Cobb are wholly contained one-off projects within the county that could easily be undertaken by the county.

I guess what I'm asking is what I've been asking....for a citizen of Cobb, what will the impact of passing this tax be? How will my commute actually get better, especially if I stay within the county or go to north Fulton or around the Perimeter, and NOT to downtown Atlanta? The implied answer from supporters is that the express bus will take cars off I-75 and therefore travel on I-75 will be transformed. OK...even if you take that as fact (and I don't)...how many people and what percentage of Cobb residents actually commute via I-75 to Atlanta? Of that number, how many will abandon their cars to take the new express bus? I submit that it's not that large of a percentage now and won't be in the future, hence some of the lack of support.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I guess what I'm asking is what I've been asking....for a citizen of Cobb, what will the impact of passing this tax be? How will my commute actually get better, especially if I stay within the county or go to north Fulton or around the Perimeter, and NOT to downtown Atlanta? The implied answer from supporters is that the express bus will take cars off I-75 and therefore travel on I-75 will be transformed. OK...even if you take that as fact (and I don't)...how many people and what percentage of Cobb residents actually commute via I-75 to Atlanta? Of that number, how many will abandon their cars to take the new express bus? I submit that it's not that large of a percentage now and won't be in the future, hence some of the lack of support.

It's a mistake to think of this in terms of how many people will ride a bus (or train) intown downtown Atlanta. My guess is that there are about as many residents of the city of Atlanta commuting into Cobb as vice versa.

That's probably the main reason the commission chairman and the Chamber of Commerce types in Cobb got on board with the TSPLOST -- it should be a huge financial boon to the county. Cobb is a massive center for employment, education, shopping and the arts, so it's smart to do whatever you can to facilitate commuters coming in from Atlanta, DeKalb and other areas.

For folks you personally, Neil, I doubt that ANY transportation plan is going to have much effect. You've set things up properly, so that you can work from home and only need to drive to an office (a short distance away) a couple of times a week.

It's the same for me personally. I'm looking at this as a way to change the direction of our region from backwards to forward again. There is no question that we've been stagnating for 15 years and that we're losing our reputation as a happening place.

Can you measure these effects in minutes shaved off someone's individual commute or return per passenger mile? Frankly I don't think so.

It's like all other quality of life improvements. How much does it help to build a new park? What's the incremental advantage to an individual of having a first rate water and sewer system? Is the value having world class opera and ballet companies your county calculated simply by how much rent they pay? Is the merit of putting in sidewalks or interchange improvements something you can figure out in dollars and cents? Is there value in weaving one's own neck of the woods more fully into the regional framework by offering transit options?

To remain in the forefront in any field of endeavor -- civic, business or individual -- you need a vision of where you want to be. We have to set high goals, and well, think big rather than little.

As a New Yorker you know that none of that city's great projects would have come to pass if people had not been willing to do that. There would be no street grid, no subways, no tall buildings, no great libraries or museums, no Central Park, no water tunnel No. 3.

So in my mind, that's what this is about. Do we here in Atlanta want to be something special?

Or shall we just let the air continue to slowly go out of the balloon? At some point, you know, the remaining air goes out very quickly.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by arjay57

It's a mistake to think of this in terms of how many people will ride a bus (or train) intown downtown Atlanta. My guess is that there are about as many residents of the city of Atlanta commuting into Cobb as vice versa.

Perhaps, but then where's the problem?

I know some folks (who are walking to work in Atlanta and not actually on the roads) will tell me I'm wrong, but the times when I drive I-75 in the morning or evening rush, it's really not that bad at all. In fact, I was coming home from Atlanta on Friday afternoon at 5:30pm, and the road was speed limit or better the entire way to the junction at I-285. The reverse commutes are certainly not a problem.

The same thing is often true in the morning when I've had to head downtown or to the airport during rush hour. There is little or no real traffic beyond what should be expected in a big city at rush hour. Maybe some stop and go for a little bit, but nothing that had a huge impact on travel time.

So the question is again...if the real traffic is above I-285, how is any of this TSPLOST going to help it? Certainly the transit to Arts Center from Acworth isn't going to impact on the vehicles getting on/off I-75 for I-285, correct? So why spend the $600 million to supposedly impact on a part of a commute that isn't bad now?

[ATLHRLGUY]

If this article has already been posted my apologies, it's a good read detailing the inception of MARTA. The article also discusses transportation decisions and compromises the state and local governments have made over the years that have put us in the situation we are in now.

Features - Atlanta Magazine

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLHRLGUY

If this article has already been posted my apologies, it's a good read detailing the inception of MARTA. The article also discusses transportation decisions and compromises the state and local governments have made over the years that have put us in the situation we are in now.

Features - Atlanta Magazine

Great article. Very good info on how Atlanta was in the civil rights era and how much Georgia hates Atlanta. Let's pass the Transportation Referendum on July 31st so we aren't looking back 10, 20 years from now, wishing we would have passed the 1%, 10 year sales tax.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Did you look at the information? The WSB poll showed that even in Dekalb and Fulton counties, support was below 50%. When you consider that Democrats make up a majority in those counties...the weighting is even more significant.

It also showed that how ever you break down the demographics, no group supports this thing beyond 50%, not blacks, not whites, not Democrats, not Republicans.

As I said....DOA.

50-32 is still pretty largely in favor. But you're right, the overall trend is against. I think it speaks volumes that there is a much higher percentage of undecided Democrats than Republicans--see, we don't always have our minds fixated on something.

[bu2]

Reluctantly, NO on T-SPLOST

Nice editorial by a writer who shares a lot of my views on the subject. I was an almost sure yes vote until the project list started getting put together.