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The area around Hartsfield can't handle the busiest airport. Cobb citizens wouldn't have planes flying over them every five minutes.
I agree about the vision part. Kasim at least tried.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
You are making some very incorrect assumptions, and you did say every 5 min, so I was just quoting. There is no way possible or feasible that you could spilt the air traffic between Dobbins and Hartsfield the way you indicate between domestic and international.
What you might do, as I mentioned, is a situation like White Plains or Long Beach where you offload some small regional routes and some overflow from high capacity routes, which might amount to 5-10% of the current load at ATL.
ATL has all of the airline infrastructure for both passenger and freight, and all of the customs and law enforcement infrastructure, and all of the transportation infrastructure. Best case would probably be that you take some of the routes that can support passengers from the north side of town and shift them to Dobbins.
But, yeah I get what you're saying. I just thought we wanted a second airport to move some flights there, because our current one can't be expanded.
Well, first, as long as Lockheed is there, there will need to be some type of secure airfield.
With the type of deep spending cuts that the Feds and the Department of Defense are talking about at this point, there is not necessarily any guarantee that the Lockheed plant would continue to remain at Dobbins over the long-term in the event that the Air Reserve Base were to be closed.
(...Unfortunately, with the amount of heavy residential development surrounding the airfield, and with Dobbins seeing reduced military air activity due to the close heavy residential development, it could potentially be difficult for the Dobbins ARB to escape this latest round of deep defense spending cuts and base closures.)
Though, I personally would hope that Lockheed would continue to remain and keep a large presence in Georgia at the Dobbins site, especially seeing as though the Lockheed plant has had such an overwhelmingly-positive effect on the explosive growth of the economy and the population in Cobb County and Northwest Metro Atlanta.
If the Lockheed plant (originally Bell Bomber plant) had never been built at Dobbins, it is highly-doubtful that Cobb County (and Northwest Metro Atlanta) would be the economic, demographic and political powerhouse that it is today.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
Second, as someone who lives close enough to Dobbins to get F-22, F-18, and C-130 traffic over my home, I wouldn't have a problem with some commercial flights. I lived near other busy airports and am a pilot, so it would not be an issue, at least for me.
It's good that you personally would not have a problem with Dobbins being converted into a second major commercial airport for the Atlanta region.
But with Dobbins being surrounded with so much heavy residential development (particularly to the south and to the west directly in what would be the main flight path of the airport), there are likely a lot of people who would have big problems with Dobbins being converted to a second major commercial airport for the Atlanta region and the substantial increase in flight traffic that would come with it.
Just recently, only about a few years ago, there was an extremely-heavy and intense amount of pushback from the public when Gwinnett County attempted to privatize its airport (Briscoe Field) with the intent of making the airport into a second major commercial airport for the Atlanta region.
(...Before Southwest Airlines purchased AirTran, there was talk of making Briscoe Field a focus airport for Southwest who had no presence in the Atlanta market at the time...there was also talk of making Briscoe Field a focus airport for shipping giants UPS (whose air shipping hub is currently located in Louisville, Kentucky...UPS wants to expand its air shipping operations in Atlanta but is hampered by the focus on passenger traffic at Hartsfield-Jackson) and FedEx (who is looking to expand their presence in the explosively fast-growing prime Atlanta market)).
The heavy pushback came from Lawrenceville city officials (Briscoe Field lies inside of the Lawrenceville city limits less than a mile from historic downtown Lawrenceville...Lawrenceville officials have long-term plans to redevelop the city into a college town built around the fast-growing Georgia Gwinnett College) and the tens-of-thousands of residents who live in the heavy residential development that is located close to the airfield which only sees a very-minor amount of traffic at present.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
Third, if it was an overflow airport for folks on the north side of town, then most people would be coming from Cobb, Paulding, Douglas, Cherokee counties and don't need, care, want, or have any use for transit to get there.
That's a good point that many airport users would not necessarily have a need to use transit to get to Dobbins in the event it were to be converted into a second major commercial airport for the Atlanta region.
But with many airport users coming from very-heavily developed areas with built-out non-expandable road networks in very-heavily populated counties like Fulton, DeKalb and Gwinnett counties, and...
...With many business travelers likely flying into and out of the airport to access densely-developed major commercial/industrial/business districts like the Cumberland/Galleria area, Perimeter Center/Dunwoody, Buckhead, Midtown Atlanta, Downtown Atlanta, Emory University, Alpharetta, Norcross/Peachtree Corners, etc, and...
...With the extremely-limited and effectively built-out road network on metro Atlanta's entire explosively fast-growing Northside where the amount of road space stays pretty much the same while the amount of development and population continues to grow (often dramatically)...
...Transit (along with targeted improvements to existing major roads at the absolute worst and most-congested spots) must be apart of the transportation equation.
There's no way that a very-fast growing large major metro region with a continuously growing population of 5 million, 6 million, 7 million, 8 million, etc, will be able to continue to function at a high level over the long-term with an extremely-limited road network built only for a metro population of about 2.5 million and an undersized and severely-stunted transit network.
Thinking that metro Atlanta can continue to function at a high level over the long-term without a significant transit presence is almost like thinking that a large major metro area like Boston can function without transit.
Of course, Atlanta does not have the density of population and development that a Boston has, but Atlanta has an extremely-limited surface road network that is pretty much the same (if not worst in many respects) than Boston, despite having a much-lower density of population and development and a much-larger land area than Boston's metro region.
(...Atlanta lacks the gridded road network of other large major metro regions like Dallas, Houston, Miami, Los Angeles, Chicago and Toronto which feature multiple crosstown/cross-regional alternate surface routes that parallel busy freeway routes.)
In the event that Dobbins were to be converted to a second major commercial airport for the Atlanta region (which I personally think may be largely unlikely because of the heavy amount of surrounding existing residential development and because of the lack of land area available for Dobbins to physically expand), there would absolutely need to be high-capacity transit connections from the major commercial and business districts around the Atlanta region north of the I-20.
(...In addition to the implementation of transit, there would also need to be improvements made to existing roads like the reconstruction of the existing interchange at I-75 and GA 280 Delk Road, the reconstruction of GA 280 Delk Road into a controlled-access superhighway, and the reconstruction of US 41 Cobb Parkway into a super-arterial road with express lanes through the busiest major intersections.)
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Originally Posted by neil0311
Not to mention that Cobb Pkwy, South Cobb Drive, Atlanta Road (the main entry points) are not even close to being anywhere near to "Atlanta's worst traffic." I sometimes wonder if people think about what they're saying.
I don't know if those roads have metro Atlanta's absolute worst traffic, but I do know that South Cobb Drive and Atlanta Road can be very-heavy at times during rush hours while US 41 Cobb Parkway is prone to experience gridlock-like conditions at times during rush hour, particularly if there is a major problem on I-75 and motorists have to use US 41 as the primary alternate route to I-75.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
There is CCT service up Cobb Pkwy, and I'm sure (just as with the Braves) that if Dobbins was turned into a commercial airport and there was a need to connect it with MARTA or one of the two CCT hubs that are each a couple of miles away, they'll do it.
Why do people on this forum have this knee jerk reaction to anything where you first judge it by what "transit" is there, and next you always assume that no one is ever thinking about what changes need to be made if the project becomes a reality. It gets a little silly after a while.
These are good points as one would hope that the necessarily adjustments to an area's transportation infrastructure would be made before major traffic-generating new developments come online.
But with the extremely-poor recent track record of the government's handling of transportation in the Atlanta region (particularly with the recent extreme managerial and operational troubles at two very-crucial transportation agencies at GDOT and MARTA), it is always understandable why people would be seriously-concerned that the proper improvements to the transportation infrastructure would not be made to handle the additional traffic that will be generated by major new developments before they open.
I wonder if Dobbins might be TOO good of a location for the reliever airport.
Consider the possibility that people could flock to the new airport in droves--which they may, in part due to the fact that higher income metro Atlantans tend to live in the northern suburbs. That could easily turn Dobbins into the next Chicago Midway, which is one of the busiest tier-two airports in the nation.
Whereas if Paulding Regional or the Douglasville site served as relievers, I don't think air traffic would be nearly as great.
Turning Dobbins into a commercial airport would be a great idea despite the aircraft noise. It has a long enough runway; I suppose the 2nd could be extended. Airports and runways are really really expensive so most of that would already be solved. Besides, I prefer smaller airport terminals.
Not really. Can you imagine the howls from Dobbins' neighbors if someone wanted to fly in 737s, A320s, etc? Not to mention the lack of transit access, while simultaneously being in the middle of Atlanta's worst traffic.
The better use for it is a massive mixed-use development and green space. Ideally, the development would have commuter rail access to Atlanta given the rail line is right there. I could also see it being made into a fly-in community, possibly as part of a mixed-use development, the occasional Cessna has less neighborly impact than the occasional C-130.
And I would be one of the ones complaining as well.
Not really. Can you imagine the howls from Dobbins' neighbors if someone wanted to fly in 737s, A320s, etc? Not to mention the lack of transit access, while simultaneously being in the middle of Atlanta's worst traffic.
The better use for it is a massive mixed-use development and green space. Ideally, the development would have commuter rail access to Atlanta given the rail line is right there. I could also see it being made into a fly-in community, possibly as part of a mixed-use development, the occasional Cessna has less neighborly impact than the occasional C-130.
It wouldn't be any worse than the fighter jets and cargo planes flying in, out, and around now.
I wonder if Dobbins might be TOO good of a location for the reliever airport.
Consider the possibility that people could flock to the new airport in droves--which they may, in part due to the fact that higher income metro Atlantans tend to live in the northern suburbs. That could easily turn Dobbins into the next Chicago Midway, which is one of the busiest tier-two airports in the nation.
This is an excellent point.
With the great location a second major commercial airport at Dobbins would enjoy in the fast-growing I-75/US 41-anchored Northwest Corridor, there is strong evidence that Cobb County (and Northwest Metro Atlanta) would experience a huge and dramatic spike in growth if Dobbins were ever to be converted into a commercial airfield.
The combination of the new Braves' stadium with the development of a busy commercial airfield at Dobbins would basically combine to turn an already post-suburban and 708,000-inhabitant Cobb County into a heavily-developed and much more densely-populated major urban/post-suburban district on par with outlying urban/post-suburban districts like a San Fernando Valley (just outside L.A.) or even a Long Island, New York...
...The intensity of development that would be sparked with the development of a new commercial airfield at the site of Dobbins ARB (in an already heavily-developed and fast-growing ground transportation corridor close to multiple major commercial districts on the north side of metro Atlanta) combined with the development of the new Braves' stadium would most-likely be that great.
Cobb County (which already has 708,000 inhabitants) would very-likely eclipse the 1 million-inhabitant mark in relatively very-short order if a second major commercial airport was located on the Dobbins ARB site...
...That's how logistically advantageous of a site Dobbins would be for a major commercial airport (and that's how powerful of an economic driver an airport at Dobbins would be for Cobb County) were an airport ever to be located there, which would be doubtful if only because of the very-heavy amount of existing residential development on the west, northwest and south sides of the site...
...Existing heavy residential development that would provide much stiff opposition to the development of a new major commercial airport on the Dobbins ARB site that would face limits to how much it could be expanded due to the existence of said surrounding heavy development.
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Originally Posted by toll_booth
Whereas if Paulding Regional or the Douglasville site served as relievers, I don't think air traffic would be nearly as great.
Those are good points as the Dawsonville site likely would never be able to become operational due to intense opposition by environmentalists and the Paulding County site seems to be a bit far (and somewhat disconnected) from many of the major commercial/business districts of heavily-populated North Metro Atlanta with no direct freeway access.
Though, with no heavy residential development immediately surrounding the airport, the Paulding County site has a major advantage in that it still has the nearby land available to physically expand as needed.
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