Malls Washed Up? Not Quite Yet: Ideas for Metro Atlanta (Savannah: for sale, home)

[0nyxStation]

Originally Posted by JPD

It's worth noting that Lenox and Phipps get A LOT of business from people who don't live in Atlanta or Georgia. People come to Atlanta just to shop at these malls, and they tend to drop massive amounts of money when they do. That certainly is not the case for other malls in Metro Atlanta.

This....but the easy access to rail makes it a place to shop.

[David1502]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

Yea but the way people are pitching it you'd think that is all that matters and the only successful malls have MARTA.

Both of which are false.

First and foremost the reason Lenox is Lenox is that it is in Buckhead near homes, mini-mansions, and mansions that total up to the 10s of millions sometimes.

That mall would do well if it only had a gravel road going to it. It is the market area that matters.

Now I'm not saying MARTA is bad, but its being oversold in this case.

You are exactly right. The shoppers who keep Neiman Marcus, Tiffany's, Cartier and Saks Fifth Avenue in business are driving up in their own cars. They are not getting there on a monthly MARTA card, I can assure you.

The wealthy households west of Peachtree (the West Paces Ferry corridor, to be specific) can drive to Lenox and Phipps in a fraction of the time it would take to ride a couple of MARTA buses. The same is true in Dunwoody/Sandy Springs where a large number of homeowners along Spalding Drive don't even have a MARTA bus within walking distance of their homes.

For the high end stores, the main benefit they have receive from being on MARTA is the business travelers (often attending conventions) who will take MARTA to Lenox from Downtown.

In the big scheme of things, Metro Atlanta has a population of over 5 million, yet when it comes to the really high end retail, there is a limited market and residentially it is primarily concentrated in the western half of Buckhead, parts of Sandy Springs and Dunwoody, Vinings, and Milton. The fact that Bloomingdale's couldn't make it at Perimeter Mall and Nordstrom closed its store at the Mall of Georgia shows this. Over 15 years ago, there was talk of a high end Taubman owned shopping center going into a location along Union Hill Rd. in South Forsyth County. Neiman Marcus was signed on as an anchor and Saks considered it, too. However, Taubman must have decided there wasn't enough of a market there because they still haven't built it.

Likewise, there were aspirations for the Midtown Mile to be a shopping destination similar to Chicago's Magnificent Mile along Michigan Avenue. that hasn't panned out, either.

Even Phipps Plaza isn't as high end a mall as one might find in other big cities with stores like Belk (I know it's one of their flagship stores), Chico's and Buster Brown shoes, it isn't in the same league with other high end malls like Bal Harbor in Miami or South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, CA.

I'm not saying this as a slam on Metro Atlanta, but what I am saying is that there is a limited high end retail market and those in that market are doing their shopping by car, not by MARTA.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by David1502

Even Phipps Plaza isn't as high end a mall as one might find in other big cities with stores like Belk (I know it's one of their flagship stores), Chico's and Buster Brown shoes, it isn't in the same league with other high end malls like Bal Harbor in Miami or South Coast Plaza in Costa Mesa, CA.

I'm not saying this as a slam on Metro Atlanta, but what I am saying is that there is a limited high end retail market and those in that market are doing their shopping by car, not by MARTA.

Well that is no knock on Atlanta, unless someone wants to get highly defensive. But we need to compared this adaquetly too. Most cities can't expect to have a Bal Harbor Mall. Even Miami residents do not have the wealth to support it, but it is a high-end vacation destination. It has the St Regis just north of Miami Beach right next door.

Parts of California, though, now there is a great deal of wealth out there!


But lets not take our eyes off the prize. A mall doesn't need just the extreme upper tier to survive. There is plenty of money near Perimeter and Mall of Georgia. Both are busy successful malls, but there will be more sales at Macys, Von Maur, and Dillards.

That stature of wealth will make a mall thrive, so long as that is what makes a bulk of the market area.

I will also caution one thing. I think the market is still growing here in Atlanta. We just got hit really hard in the recession. I would expect to see more retail for upper middle and upper incomes in the next decade.

[Saintmarks]

Why no mention of Town Center at Cobb? Built the same time as Gwinnett Place but is thriving. I guess we can thank the powers that be that a Mall of Georgia didn't go up in Acworth and a Mills mall in Woodstock...

But there is an outlet mall in Woodstock and two very successful Avenues in Cobb. So it's not like there hasn't been any competition.

[midtown mile girl]

Growing up, my family would come in from outside of Atlanta to shop at Phipps, Lenox and Perimeter.
I have watched the malls change, but Lenox and Phipps are big draws. The past few years have seen some bumps because of the economy and Simon's mall management. (Taking the food court out of Phipps to put in Lego Land, letting crap retailers take up space, etc)
The retail at Buckhead Atlanta is more an upscale competitor. Hermes, Dior, etc.

[Clayton white guy]

Obviously I am of more modest means than some one of the West of Peachtree mansion district, but I really enjoy the Belk and the Buster Brown at Phipps as do many who live in that same neck of the woods (kids need play clothes, hello!) Also, I have been told that the aforementioned South Coast Plaza has a Sear's (perhaps I was misinformed) anyway if they do it just serves to tell everyone that even the most affluent household has basic needs (like a refrigerator or reasonably priced kid clothes and shoes.)

[David1502]

Originally Posted by Clayton white guy

Obviously I am of more modest means than some one of the West of Peachtree mansion district, but I really enjoy the Belk and the Buster Brown at Phipps as do many who live in that same neck of the woods (kids need play clothes, hello!) Also, I have been told that the aforementioned South Coast Plaza has a Sear's (perhaps I was misinformed) anyway if they do it just serves to tell everyone that even the most affluent household has basic needs (like a refrigerator or reasonably priced kid clothes and shoes.)

The comment about the Belk and Buster Brown at Phipps wasn't meant to be a cut down, it was just to put in perspective that the Atlanta market has limits to how much high end retail can be supported by consumers here. If the leasing agents at Phipps could have leased the space where Buster Brown is located to a higher end store they would have. Likewise, they would probably prefer a Lord and Taylor where the Belk is located, however, Lord and Taylor made the decision to pull out of the southeast over ten years ago because they found out they weren't making enough money here. There was an article in the AJC about the closing of the Lord and Taylor store at Phipps (where Nordstrom is now) and some of the clerks who had been working there since it opened lamented about all of the customers who were shopping with "Take an extra 20% off coupons" because they had to compete with Macy's. They longed for the glory days of when that store first opened and rich people from Texas would fly in with their chauffer to shop at that store because it was the closes Lord and Taylor to TX at that time. I can remember when that Lord and Taylor was a three story store, but hey decided to close the basement which Nordstrom now uses.

Personally, I don't understand why shoppers pay full price for items at Lenox and Phipps when there are several outlets nearby carrying a lot of the same goods. There are more outlet shoppers in Metro Atlanta - when you consider there are three Off Fifth Saks Fifth Avenue outlet store, two Last Call Neiman Marcus stores and four Nordstrom Rack stores. These are in addition to all of the brand name outlet stores to be found at North GA Premium Outlets in Dawsonville and Woodstock Outlets.

BTW: The Sears at South Coast Plaza is a holdout from when the mall was a middle class mall. They are the only store left that isn't high end and they probably own their building. Given Sears overall financial condition, I wouldn't be surprised if that location were redeveloped. Just look at the Sears at Cumberland Mall where the second floor of the store will soon be a Kroger. Sears closed their store at Cool Springs Mall in Franklin, TN and it has been redeveloped, too.

[midtown mile girl]

Lord & Taylor was a nice store. So was Rich's (I worked there after college). I hate the coupon thing-if you are going to give a discount, give it and no games!
I used to shop at outlets, but no longer for clothes- you can get the same prices in the regular store when the item goes on sale and most outlet stores stock second rate merchandise that is not stocked in the regular store.
Nordstroms, Saks, and Neiman's all stock completely different goods in their outlets that are not found in the regular stores.
Outlets are not really true outlets anymore.

[Clayton white guy]

I too loved the old Lord and Taylor at Phipps Plaza, perhaps for a different reasons: their clearance sales were epic (I almost felt like they paid me to take merchandise out of their store, the same with old Rich's Finale sales (50% off with an extra 50% AND an applicable coupon, but I digress) and because their sale associates treated me very nicely (despite Nordstrom's (Nordstrom) reputation, no one has EVER even greeted me when I darken their doors (usually to look for kids' shoes) perhaps they "smell" the Clayton County on me LOL! I have never had that experience with any other local store (Sak's and Neiman Marcus included) As I have stated, I REALLY LIKE the Belk at Phipps Plaza (Not as well as Parisian, but that also is another story) and if I were going to resurrect Lord and Taylor in Atlanta, I would boot snooty old Nordstrom out, keep Belk, and give them back their old space. Alas, you nor I are in the property management division of Simon (which is probably a good thing for Phipps Plaza, LOL) Regardless, Parisian (and now Belk) owns their building and are not going anywhere (probably the same with the Sear's at South Coast, but THAT store must make money, or cash-strapped Sear's-K-Mart would certainly have sold it to raise funds. They have closed many non-profitable/semi-profitable stores that are still in their real estate portfolio, so they certainly would close and sell a cash cow like that! Finally South Coast Plaza has always served an affluent market (you know there was once a "Sear's Uptown" at the Buckhead Triangle at West Paces Ferry and Peachtree, that was never a "middle class" enclave EVER in the mid to late 20th century.)

[midtown mile girl]

I usually get good service at Nordstroms, Saks and Neimans. I like Belks, but I wish the merchandise was a little better.
I wish they had a decent place to eat lunch at Phipps that doesn't cost an arm & leg (other than the cafe at Nordstroms).
I miss Harry Baron's deli- that was a great place for lunch (it was in the spot where Twist is now).