MARTA to make an $8 billion pitch to change the face of Atlanta (Forsyth: beach, farms)

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by fieldm

Cool.....



What about Clayton County? Do you think they will be added to this bill?

They already have there split 1% to fund rail.

[jsvh]

I would think they would write the bill so that the TSPLOST money is allowed to be redirected to MARTA if the county chooses. Which would allow Clayton. But maybe not.

Either way Clayton will probably be good in the near-future. I think getting the commuter rail going will be the first step before any further expansions are considered there.

This also could be a good path for new counties to come into MARTA too. Gwinnett could come in at 1%, build the trunk rail line & bus network. Then vote to expand as ridership grows.

[fieldm]

HEAVY RAIL MILES

MARTA rail system - 46 miles
BART - 104 miles
Chicago 'L' - 103 miles
Washington Metro -117 miles
New York City Subway - 233 miles


With the heavy rail lines on 400 and I-20 our heavy rail miles should be close to around 75 miles. Then add the additional 15 or so miles of light rail on the CC

All we need now is heavy rail in Cobb and Gwinnett and our heavy rail numbers will be equal to METRO in DC

On a positive note at least MARTA is better than rail systems in the south

[UrbanConquistador]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I didn't say 30 minutes but it usually does take a good 10 minutes or more to get to a rail station and navigate down to the platform. Add that to both ends of a trip.

And there's no reason we can't improve bus stops with canopies and seating.

That's why I say we should flood the zone with buses (and scooters).

Scooters are a fun and quick way to get around town.

[sumitsu]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Great, so all it has to do is get through the Georgia legislature in an election year, then the county boards of commissioners, then survive the public votes.

Why don't we also blindfold and handcuff the bill and spin it around a few times. Let's add more challenges.

Hear you about the challenges, but unfortunately this has always looked like the path that MARTA expansion would have to follow. Current law doesn't provide for the long-term sales tax needed, so there's the legislative step. New sales taxes have to be put to a popular vote in their affected areas, so there's the public vote step. And as far as I can tell, county commissions have to sign off on ballot initiatives, so there's the county Board of Commissioners step (which is also the focal point of the petition I created: http://goo.gl/yKNJQs).

There's a lot which still has to go right for this to happen, but at least this is a positive step.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by fieldm

HEAVY RAIL MILES

MARTA rail system - 46 miles
BART - 104 miles
Chicago 'L' - 103 miles
Washington Metro -117 miles
New York City Subway - 233 miles


With the heavy rail lines on 400 and I-20 our heavy rail miles should be close to around 75 miles. Then add the additional 15 or so miles of light rail on the CC

All we need now is heavy rail in Cobb and Gwinnett and our heavy rail numbers will be equal to METRO in DC

On a positive note at least MARTA is better than rail systems in the south

Atlanta is nowhere near as dense as those metros. Its isn't even nearly as dense as Dallas and Houston. If MARTA got up to BART's mileage anytime soon it would bankrupt MARTA.

[1lifealex]

Originally Posted by bu2

Atlanta is nowhere near as dense as those metros. Its isn't even nearly as dense as Dallas and Houston. If MARTA got up to BART's mileage anytime soon it would bankrupt MARTA.

Dallas and Houston is not too much more dense than Atlanta what are you talking about, plus if Marta had as much mileage as Bart I'm pretty sure you would have Cobb County and Gwinnett County as part of the system so how would I get bankrupt?

[bu2]

Originally Posted by 1lifealex

Dallas and Houston is not too much more dense than Atlanta what are you talking about, plus if Marta had as much mileage as Bart I'm pretty sure you would have Cobb County and Gwinnett County as part of the system so how would I get bankrupt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

Density based on 2010 census
DFW 2,879 per square mile
Houston 2,979 per square mile
Atlanta 1,706 per square mile

NY 5,318 per square mile
San Francisco 6,266 per square mile

[sumitsu]

Originally Posted by bu2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

Density based on 2010 census
DFW 2,879 per square mile
Houston 2,979 per square mile
Atlanta 1,706 per square mile

NY 5,318 per square mile
San Francisco 6,266 per square mile

I think this analysis risks comparing dissimilar things. What we should actually compare is the population densities in the transit service areas for these cities. As I suggested in my previous post on this topic, I think the SF Bay Area's BART system is the most useful example for MARTA to follow, so I'll start there:

BART operates in 4 counties: Alameda, Contra Costa, San Francisco, and San Mateo. (The latter is apparently not technically a part of the BART transit district, but there are 6 BART stations located within San Mateo, so I'm including it here.) Per Wikipedia, here are the populations and land areas of those 4 counties:

Alameda: population: 1,610,921; land area: 739 sq mi
Contra Costa: population: 1,111,339; land area: 716 sq mi
San Francisco: population: 852,469; land area: 47 sq mi
San Mateo: population: 758,581; land area: 448 sq mi

Overall (BART-area): population: 4,333,310; land area: 1,950 sq mi
Overall BART-area Density (population / land area): 2222 people / sq mi

Overall (BART-area, minus San Mateo County): population: 3,574,729; land area: 1502 sq mi
Overall BART-area (minus San Mateo) Density (population / land area): 2380 people / sq mi

MARTA operates in 3 counties (Fulton, Dekalb, and Clayton), but for the purposes of this discussion let's assume expansion into the full 5 counties originally intended to be part of MARTA, and include Cobb and Gwinnett too:

Clayton: population: 259,424; land area: 142 sq mi
Cobb: population: 730,981; land area: 340 sq mi
Dekalb: population: 713,340; land area: 268 sq mi
Fulton: population: 996,318; land area: 527 sq mi
Gwinnett: population: 859,304; land area: 430 sq mi

Overall (MARTA-area): population: 3,559,367; land area: 1707
Overall MARTA-area Density (population / land area): 2085 people / sq mi

Overall (MARTA-area, minus Cobb/Gwinnett): population: 1,969,082; land area: 937
Overall MARTA-area (minus Cobb/Gwinnett) Density (population / land area): 2101 people / sq mi

So, while the BART service area is somewhat more dense than the MARTA service area, the difference is slight. Certainly not enough to justify keeping MARTA down to less than half of BART's size (at least on the density argument alone).

Combined with the distance-based argument in my other BART/MARTA-comparison post linked above, I think that the density comparison with BART actually supports expanding MARTA rail.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by bu2

Atlanta is nowhere near as dense as those metros. Its isn't even nearly as dense as Dallas and Houston. If MARTA got up to BART's mileage anytime soon it would bankrupt MARTA.

Originally Posted by bu2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

Density based on 2010 census
DFW 2,879 per square mile
Houston 2,979 per square mile
Atlanta 1,706 per square mile

NY 5,318 per square mile
San Francisco 6,266 per square mile

Apples and oranges. Metro Atlanta stretches past Forsyth County to the north and all the way to Alabama to the west. There are acres and acres of land in there that is nothing but farm or forest.

And don't even try to convince me that metro Houston and DFW--two of the most sprawled metropolises in the world--are "dense" overall. I've been to both places and have seen the sprawl for myself.