MARTA to make an $8 billion pitch to change the face of Atlanta (Alpharetta: universities, restaurant)

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

When you get as far out as Alpharetta where you have decreased density and a lot of stops already, its just more efficient to use park n ride buses. That's the reason few systems extend even as far as Atlanta's already does to the north. Extending MARTA to Northpoint Mall makes sense. Going the extra 5 miles through a bunch of undeveloped land to get to North Alpharetta is more problematic (and even Northpoint requires going through the relatively lightly developed areas close to the Chattahoochee).

The problem is the difficulty of putting HOT/HOV lanes on 400 inside 285. You would have to stop buses at Perimeter and force transfers or do a circuitous route to I-85 for buses going downtown. So perhaps it makes sense in this corridor to have MARTA go out that far.

That would be true, if the buses had their own, dedicated lanes. But by the time you have spent the money to build the dedicated lanes, with ramps to the P&R lots, etc. you could have built a rail line that will encourage denser development and cost less in the long run (broken pavement, fuel costs, lifespan of buses vs railcars, etc.)

[primaltech]

People would actually ride the train, because it would be a much better/simpler experience for the rider, with less transfers.

Buses are fine for plenty of uses, but there's a psychological aspect for why people prefer trains to buses. If it's a road vehicle with rubber wheels on pavement, it's not going to feel like a much better experience than just driving in your car.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

That would be true, if the buses had their own, dedicated lanes. But by the time you have spent the money to build the dedicated lanes, with ramps to the P&R lots, etc. you could have built a rail line that will encourage denser development and cost less in the long run (broken pavement, fuel costs, lifespan of buses vs railcars, etc.)

HOV lanes are vastly less expensive. Houston spent 3 billion on the Katy freeway which added about 15 lanes including going from 2 HOT lanes to 4 HOV lanes and it cost less than a single rail line would over that same distance.

As I said though, they probably aren't feasible on the inner part of 400.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

HOV lanes are vastly less expensive. Houston spent 3 billion on the Katy freeway which added about 15 lanes including going from 2 HOT lanes to 4 HOV lanes and it cost less than a single rail line would over that same distance.

As I said though, they probably aren't feasible on the inner part of 400.

HOV lanes will do nothing for 400 BRT buses, as the buses will still get caught in traffic, be slow, and ridership will go down. For buses to performing equaling to rail, they must have their OWN LANE. GDOT would never build a bus only lane.

[sumitsu]

Originally Posted by bu2

When you get as far out as Alpharetta where you have decreased density and a lot of stops already, its just more efficient to use park n ride buses. That's the reason few systems extend even as far as Atlanta's already does to the north.

I think that BART is an informative example here. From Embarcadero station in northeast San Francisco to the yellow line terminus at Pittsburgh/Bay Point station is about 35 miles: https://goo.gl/maps/vKoNtdRKTyj . Meanwhile, from Five Points station to the current Windward Park-and-Ride (and the likely location of a Windward station) is only 27 miles: https://goo.gl/maps/FuXaFPG95dy . Like MARTA, BART is a heavy-rail system, and as would be the case with a red line extension to Windward, BART's line to Pittsburgh/Bay Point traverses extensive low-density areas to reach its destination.

I'm sure that there are many differences in transit design between the Bay Area and Atlanta, but if this kind of approach can work for BART -- over a longer distance, in fact -- then why not here?

[brown_dog_us]

Originally Posted by cqholt

HOV lanes will do nothing for 400 BRT buses, as the buses will still get caught in traffic, be slow, and ridership will go down. For buses to performing equaling to rail, they must have their OWN LANE. GDOT would never build a bus only lane.

Hwy 36 between Denver and Boulder just added a 3+ HOV, bus, and toll lane all wrapped into one. In theory the price will sky rocket to use it as a toll lane during busy times so that the buses will always travel quickly. It's something that could work if there is follow through by the DOT and toll road company.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

Hwy 36 between Denver and Boulder just added a 3+ HOV, bus, and toll lane all wrapped into one. In theory the price will sky rocket to use it as a toll lane during busy times so that the buses will always travel quickly. It's something that could work if there is follow through by the DOT and toll road company.

The only way for bus to ever come close to rail-level quality is for it to have it's own dedicated lane. The HOT lanes still get congested with private vehicles.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

Hwy 36 between Denver and Boulder just added a 3+ HOV, bus, and toll lane all wrapped into one. In theory the price will sky rocket to use it as a toll lane during busy times so that the buses will always travel quickly. It's something that could work if there is follow through by the DOT and toll road company.

I-85 in Gwinnett County has that already, it's called a High Occupancy Toll (HOT) lane, or a 'managed lane'.

And the consensus is, the thing doesn't really work. The tolls have to be astronomical in order to keep car congestion out of it, which I find pretty silly. Also, you still have to merge in and out of the regular congestion lanes in order to exit the freeway. So, it's all around pretty stupid. Just another car lane.

What GDOT needs to do, is make all of these existing and planned 'express lanes', and existing HOV lanes, into bus-only lanes. And make them completely separated from the general purpose lanes by an actual barrier, with their own center exit ramps, like the ones that currently exist at Northside Dr, except make some of them fully bi-directional.

Then, all the sudden, you've actually got a solid, good, regional transit system. MARTA wouldn't even really need to expand its territory, if they did that, and it did it well. GRTA Xpress, MARTA, CCT, and GCT buses could all fly from suburban park & rides into key stops in the city, and at MARTA stations.

But that would make too much sense, so of course we can't do that. Have to cram even more cars in there.

[fourthwarden]

Here's the ART map that you requested primaltech:

WARNING: BIG IN FULL VIEW

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Here's the ART map that you requested primaltech:

WARNING: BIG IN FULL VIEW

Link no worky for me.