MARTA to make an $8 billion pitch to change the face of Atlanta (Sandy Springs: taxi, wealthy)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

North Fulton is already massively supporting MARTA and they have been since Day one. One percent of every dollar those folks spend is handed over to MARTA.

The question isn't whether they support MARTA -- they already do -- but whether they'll be required to pay even more taxes to MARTA.

Since day one, most of North Fulton was not populated enough to support rail, let alone have a large enough tax base to support it. From day one, North Fulton was supposed to get a busway, and was lucky enough to have rail built pointed riht at them instead. Johns creek, and many of those cities were not even incorporated until North Springs was being built.

It has not been until recently that there has been the population demand to support heavy rail, and yet, MARTA cannot, not won't, not won't look into, but cannot bild it without increased taxes. Not in a reasonable time frame. Developing out TODs with lease at all of their stations will take a decade, at least, if not multiple. Getting funding from the state will also take decades of political shift. MARTA can't squeeze enough money out of efficiency to be able to fund it.

The only way to expand service, and improve service as MARTA is looking to do, is to increase taxes.

[primaltech]

It wasn't until 3-4 years after North Springs station was completed, that Sandy Springs and Johns Creek even existed as entities. So yeah, for Johns Creek to complain is pretty ridiculous, and if their vote holds back Atlanta and the entire county, that will just be insane.

Also will be insane of Alpharetta's stupid ass mayor halts the rail line, considering that his city and citizens will get the most out of it (3 stations within Alpharetta city limits).

They just gotta do it. Think long term, think future.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Since day one, most of North Fulton was not populated enough to support rail, let alone have a large enough tax base to support it. From day one, North Fulton was supposed to get a busway, and was lucky enough to have rail built pointed riht at them instead. Johns creek, and many of those cities were not even incorporated until North Springs was being built.

It has not been until recently that there has been the population demand to support heavy rail, and yet, MARTA cannot, not won't, not won't look into, but cannot bild it without increased taxes. Not in a reasonable time frame. Developing out TODs with lease at all of their stations will take a decade, at least, if not multiple. Getting funding from the state will also take decades of political shift. MARTA can't squeeze enough money out of efficiency to be able to fund it.

The only way to expand service, and improve service as MARTA is looking to do, is to increase taxes.

Regardless of whether North Fulton has enough people to support mass transit, they've been paying for it since Day one anyway.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Regardless of whether North Fulton has enough people to support mass transit, they've been paying for it since Day one anyway.

In minimal quantities. Until recently, the number of people paying for it was minimal. Only when population started growing was there enough money to push to North Springs.

It does not matter that 'they have been paying this whole time' since most of them weren't there for this whole time. Nor were the cities there for this whole time. Nor was the rail there for this whole time.

The REALITY, as has been said over and over and over, is that the amount of funding MARTA get's now IS NOT enough to build heavy rail north. The REALITY is that North Fulton stands to benefit directly from this funding, while the rest of the county will be paying the exact same amount in increased taxes, for, in some places, less service.

The city of Atlanta has been showing support for the expansions, even though our direct benefits are even defined yet. Really, the way I see it, is that the city will be paying for the expansion just as much as North Fulton, but without the added rail within its boarders.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

In minimal quantities. Until recently, the number of people paying for it was minimal. Only when population started growing was there enough money to push to North Springs.

It does not matter that 'they have been paying this whole time' since most of them weren't there for this whole time. Nor were the cities there for this whole time. Nor was the rail there for this whole time.

The REALITY, as has been said over and over and over, is that the amount of funding MARTA get's now IS NOT enough to build heavy rail north. The REALITY is that North Fulton stands to benefit directly from this funding, while the rest of the county will be paying the exact same amount in increased taxes, for, in some places, less service.

The city of Atlanta has been showing support for the expansions, even though our direct benefits are even defined yet. Really, the way I see it, is that the city will be paying for the expansion just as much as North Fulton, but without the added rail within its boarders.

But it allows the city to build office buildings and fill them and collect all the taxes.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by bu2

But it allows the city to build office buildings and fill them and collect all the taxes.

And allows the people who work in those offices to live in the suburbs, where they can collect the taxes. It's just like what we do now, except that there would be a way other than congested highways for people to get to and from.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

In minimal quantities. Until recently, the number of people paying for it was minimal. Only when population started growing was there enough money to push to North Springs.

It does not matter that 'they have been paying this whole time' since most of them weren't there for this whole time. Nor were the cities there for this whole time. Nor was the rail there for this whole time.

The REALITY, as has been said over and over and over, is that the amount of funding MARTA get's now IS NOT enough to build heavy rail north. The REALITY is that North Fulton stands to benefit directly from this funding, while the rest of the county will be paying the exact same amount in increased taxes, for, in some places, less service.

The city of Atlanta has been showing support for the expansions, even though our direct benefits are even defined yet. Really, the way I see it, is that the city will be paying for the expansion just as much as North Fulton, but without the added rail within its boarders.

If I'm not mistaken North Fulton hit the 300,000 mark 20 years ago. That's hardly negligible.

As for who's been getting the benefit, 2/3 of the rail stations and track miles are in the COA. North fulton has 3 stations and maybe 5% of the track.

[primaltech]

Is East Lake station in the city of Atlanta, or Decatur? It's right on the border.

Yeah, I count about 14 or so stations that are not in city of Atlanta, out of 38 total. So yeah, about 1/3.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

If I'm not mistaken North Fulton hit the 300,000 mark 20 years ago. That's hardly negligible.

And yet they got two stations in the past 16 years. That's hardly negligible as well, considering that was THE most recent expansion.

That's the best that the current funding methods could handle, and that's what was done. As always, more money is needed for more service. That's in any part of the metro.

As for who's been getting the benefit, 2/3 of the rail stations and track miles are in the COA. North fulton has 3 stations and maybe 5% of the track.

And yet, when the opportunity comes for the City and South Fulton to help sponsor 12 miles and 5 more stations of rail into their area, they say no. It's as if everyone but the people who it would benefit most understand that fact, and yet are still willing to pay for it.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

In minimal quantities. Until recently, the number of people paying for it was minimal. Only when population started growing was there enough money to push to North Springs.

It does not matter that 'they have been paying this whole time' since most of them weren't there for this whole time. Nor were the cities there for this whole time. Nor was the rail there for this whole time.

The REALITY, as has been said over and over and over, is that the amount of funding MARTA get's now IS NOT enough to build heavy rail north. The REALITY is that North Fulton stands to benefit directly from this funding, while the rest of the county will be paying the exact same amount in increased taxes, for, in some places, less service.

The city of Atlanta has been showing support for the expansions, even though our direct benefits are even defined yet. Really, the way I see it, is that the city will be paying for the expansion just as much as North Fulton, but without the added rail within its boarders.

That is an excellent point that the current 1% sales tax that funds MARTA service just simply is not enough (and is nowhere near enough) to fund the expansion of Heavy Rail Transit service.

North Fulton cities like Alpharetta and Johns Creek may be hesitant to support an increase in the 1% sales tax that funds MARTA service for fear that they will pay more sales tax and still not get the high level of multimodal transit service they desire.

But with the increased population and development that now exists in North Fulton County, there does possibly seem to be a significant amount of potential to pay for expanded transit service in that area without having to rally for a vote on a sales tax increase.

Areas that might be the sites of future stations on an expanded MARTA Red Line like GA 400 & GA 140/Holcomb Bridge Road, North Point Mall, the new Avalon development at GA 400 & GA 120/Old Milton Parkway and GA 400 & Windward Parkway provide an opportunity to fund expanded transit service with large-scale public-private financial partnerships (P3s) with commercial real estate developers and commercial real estate property owners in a way that is similar to the way that the development of the future MMPT in Downtown Atlanta is being funded with a large-scale public-private financial partnership with private commercial real estate developers.

(...For example, redeveloping North Point Mall into a large-scale high-density mixed-use Transit-Oriented Development built on and around a future Heavy Rail Transit station that generates a robust amount of revenue for transit operations.)

In addition to large-scale public-private financial partnerships with private commercial real estate developers and owners (Transit-Oriented Developments, Tax Increment Financing, Tax Allocation Districts at and around stations and along routes, extensive and exhaustive sales of large and small private sponsorships, etc), another creative way of financing improved, upgraded and expanded transit service might be to ask taxpayers if they want to voluntarily contribute at least a minimum amount of money to transit when they pay their income and property taxes....That way all taxes paid would be voluntary and people who don't want to pay for transit don't have to pay for transit and won't be able to argue that they are being forced to pay for something that they do not want and personally oppose.

Asking for voluntary private contributions at tax time (while also collecting revenues from large-scale financial partnerships with private business and selling massive amounts of large and small private sponsorships) also will collect more revenue than would be collected if a tax referendum never occurs or does not pass.

Voluntary private tax contributions (along with large-scale public-private financial partnerships and massive sales of large and small private sponsorships) are also a way to avoid the controversy that comes with just the mere mention of sales tax referendums.