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So an elected representative is supposed to support MARTA expansion and higher MARTA taxes even if his constituents are telling him they don't want it?
I'm a MARTA supporter myself but there isn't universal agreement on these subjects.
For example, instead of trying to force higher MARTA taxes on suburban communities who don't want it, why not focus on improving the system within its existing parameters?
And why increase the burden on individual taxpayers rather than exploring some of the other funding options that have been suggested?
I am sure he has spoken to a small and very loud portion of the North Fulton voters. The others are stuck in traffic on 400.
It wasn't until 3-4 years after North Springs station was completed, that Sandy Springs and Johns Creek even existed as entities. So yeah, for Johns Creek to complain is pretty ridiculous, and if their vote holds back Atlanta and the entire county, that will just be insane.
Also will be insane of Alpharetta's stupid ass mayor halts the rail line, considering that his city and citizens will get the most out of it (3 stations within Alpharetta city limits).
They just gotta do it. Think long term, think future.
That's just it--they think here and now, maybe 5-10 years down the road tops. Thirty, 40, 50 years down the road? Oh hell now.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
And allows the people who work in those offices to live in the suburbs, where they can collect the taxes. It's just like what we do now, except that there would be a way other than congested highways for people to get to and from.
Exactly. Wealthy suburbanites are systematically shielded by the hidden economic subsidies that enable their way of life.
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Originally Posted by arjay57
If I'm not mistaken North Fulton hit the 300,000 mark 20 years ago. That's hardly negligible.
As for who's been getting the benefit, 2/3 of the rail stations and track miles are in the COA. North fulton has 3 stations and maybe 5% of the track.
Yet North Fulton is getting the most expensive infrastructure project in the history of GADOT.
Yet North Fulton is getting the most expensive infrastructure project in the history of GADOT.
LOL...Maybe the infrastructure project that North Fulton is getting (the long overdue reconstruction of the I-285/GA 400 interchange) wouldn't have been so ridiculously expensive had the state just simply paid to rebuild the I-285/GA 400 interchange when they built the GA 400 extension through Buckhead and North Atlanta....Back when land costs and construction costs were much cheaper back in the late 1980's and early 1990's.
The state could have used the tolls on GA 400 to reconstruct the I-285/GA 400 interchange....But the state was in such a hurry to push through the GA 400 extension for their Northside real estate development buddies that they made the tolls temporary and promised to remove the tolls without paying for the I-285/GA 400 interchange reconstruction which the state knew was greatly needed at the time that the GA 400 Extension was being pushed through.
As has been said around here about fifty million times, this mindset of "if it doesn't directly benefit me, I shouldn't support it" is toxic. Johns Creek, for instance, should be on board with a future MARTA expansion into Gwinnett County, because they could get a commuter bus line on 141 as part of the deal. But it would not surprise me if they opposed that too, because reasons.
Even the rather conservative North Fulton, as far as I understand, is generally on board with MARTA rail expansion. But this "all cities must approve" clause is very likely to doom it.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Right. As has been said, Johs Creek's decision isn't only theirs. It is an all or nothing thing, requireing all municipalities to agree for it to pass. By rejecting the program, Johns creek denies Alpharetta rail, they deny the CDC rail, they deny sectioncs of mid and southern Fulton ART routes and express buses. Not only that, but they deny themselves city buses and expanded bus service in Northern Fulton.
All of that, and i'm still not convenced they're actually listening to their constituants. The decicion was made without actual public input.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Since day one, most of North Fulton was not populated enough to support rail, let alone have a large enough tax base to support it. From day one, North Fulton was supposed to get a busway, and was lucky enough to have rail built pointed riht at them instead. Johns creek, and many of those cities were not even incorporated until North Springs was being built.
It has not been until recently that there has been the population demand to support heavy rail, and yet, MARTA cannot, not won't, not won't look into, but cannot bild it without increased taxes. Not in a reasonable time frame. Developing out TODs with lease at all of their stations will take a decade, at least, if not multiple. Getting funding from the state will also take decades of political shift. MARTA can't squeeze enough money out of efficiency to be able to fund it.
The only way to expand service, and improve service as MARTA is looking to do, is to increase taxes.
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Originally Posted by primaltech
It wasn't until 3-4 years after North Springs station was completed, that Sandy Springs and Johns Creek even existed as entities. So yeah, for Johns Creek to complain is pretty ridiculous, and if their vote holds back Atlanta and the entire county, that will just be insane.
Also will be insane of Alpharetta's stupid ass mayor halts the rail line, considering that his city and citizens will get the most out of it (3 stations within Alpharetta city limits).
They just gotta do it. Think long term, think future.
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Originally Posted by arjay57
Regardless of whether North Fulton has enough people to support mass transit, they've been paying for it since Day one anyway.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
In minimal quantities. Until recently, the number of people paying for it was minimal. Only when population started growing was there enough money to push to North Springs.
It does not matter that 'they have been paying this whole time' since most of them weren't there for this whole time. Nor were the cities there for this whole time. Nor was the rail there for this whole time.
The REALITY, as has been said over and over and over, is that the amount of funding MARTA get's now IS NOT enough to build heavy rail north. The REALITY is that North Fulton stands to benefit directly from this funding, while the rest of the county will be paying the exact same amount in increased taxes, for, in some places, less service.
The city of Atlanta has been showing support for the expansions, even though our direct benefits are even defined yet. Really, the way I see it, is that the city will be paying for the expansion just as much as North Fulton, but without the added rail within its boarders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
And yet, when the opportunity comes for the City and South Fulton to help sponsor 12 miles and 5 more stations of rail into their area, they say no. It's as if everyone but the people who it would benefit most understand that fact, and yet are still willing to pay for it.
The talk of not wanting MARTA multimodal transit service expansion by officials in North Fulton (particularly in Johns Creek and Alpharetta) likely does not mean that they don't any want transit expansion.
The talk of Johns Creek and Alpharetta officials not wanting expanded MARTA multimodal transit service in North Fulton may likely be a sign of the current resurrection of the movement for North Fulton to attempt to breakaway from Fulton County to reform the old Milton County.
The proposed MARTA expansion up the GA 400 corridor likely is just a casualty of many (but not all) North Fulton residents desire to breakaway from Fulton County and resurrect the erstwhile Milton County.
Some of the officials talking down the expansion of MARTA service into North Fulton County likely still support the expansion of transit service in the GA 400 and GA 141 corridors, but they just likely want that future expanded transit service not to be controlled, managed and operated by MARTA, which North Fultonites see as being an instrument of Southside political and social interests.
Yeah. If there's permanent MARTA heavy rail infrastructure in Roswell and Alpharetta, and N Fulton north of the river ever breaks off to form their own bullsh*t county, then it would be pretty awkward for them to not participate/fund MARTA, which I imagine some up there would like to do. Not likely to abandon the physical stations, especially if they are nice, brand new, integrated with the environment.
Anyway, I prefer to think/hope that the anti-MARTA stuff from their city 'leaders' (without consulting the actual residences), is more smart posturing than serious. Maybe they'll cave at the last minute, as long as they get some kind of 'deal' in exchange. But who knows.
Again just because John Creek officials doesnt want MARTA doesn't mean the residents dont want it. Just like most Americans didnt want to go to war with Iraq but gov officials did even though the public was mostly against it.
And whoever that thinks most people in that area dont want heavy rail is crazy. Its basically already there they are just expanding it. You know how much happier those residents would be if they didnt have to worry about taking a taxi or driving to the airport anymore. Hell it would be so many people waiting to get on MARTA at 4:45am so they can get on those early morning flights. People in Canton and Duluth would also drive to Alpharetta to use MARTA because it would be easier than driving intown for work or to the airport.
Stop letting local officials with a secret agenda brainwash you into thinking people don't want it! Officials can say what they want but i bet the residents will vote for it by 70%
I am sure he has spoken to a small and very loud portion of the North Fulton voters. The others are stuck in traffic on 400.
Personally I think a new station or two in north Fulton would attract a number of riders. North springs gets considerably more boardings than stations such as Decatur, Lenox or Inman Park.
However, that's unlikely to significantly improve traffic. People will still have to drive to the station and that may actually increase traffic in the areas nearby.
So is it worth it for the residents up there to peel off another .5% for MARTA out of every dollar they spend, in addition to the 1% they are already giving to MARTA? I can definitely see more than one side to this argument.
Personally I think a new station or two in north Fulton would attract a number of riders. North springs gets considerably more boardings than stations such as Decatur, Lenox or Inman Park.
However, that's unlikely to significantly improve traffic. People will still have to drive to the station and that may actually increase traffic in the areas nearby.
So is it worth it for the residents up there to peel off another .5% for MARTA out of every dollar they spend, in addition to the 1% they are already giving to MARTA? I can definitely see more than one side to this argument.
So what's the alternative? Continuing the status quo of the past 30 years and widen roads that will just fill up when the projects are complete? That's worked real well.
Personally I think a new station or two in north Fulton would attract a number of riders. North springs gets considerably more boardings than stations such as Decatur, Lenox or Inman Park.
However, that's unlikely to significantly improve traffic. People will still have to drive to the station and that may actually increase traffic in the areas nearby.
So is it worth it for the residents up there to peel off another .5% for MARTA out of every dollar they spend, in addition to the 1% they are already giving to MARTA? I can definitely see more than one side to this argument.
Mass transit is about giving people an additional option instead of decreasing traffic because the cities with the best transit have the worst traffic ( DC, NYC, San Fran)
I can't believe Decatur station is on the bottom half of ridership. It's like one of the most useful stations out of all.
I guess because it's only served by one color, and it's not a park&ride.
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