Turner Field Redevelopment RFP Going Out Next Month (Atlanta, Oakwood: for sale, real estate)

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Don't count on it.

Why not look at this as an opportunity to move forward instead of just carping at Cobb?

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Why not look at this as an opportunity to move forward instead of just carping at Cobb?

Because Cobb doesn't seem to be using this as an opportunity to move forward. I welcome them if they want to use this a reason to embrace connectivity and partnerships with the rest of the region. But unfortunately they only seem to use it to fuel their rivalry with Atlanta.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Because Cobb doesn't seem to be using this as an opportunity to move forward. I welcome them if they want to use this a reason to embrace connectivity and partnerships with the rest of the region. But unfortunately they only seem to use it to fuel their rivalry with Atlanta.

Nailed it exactly.

[evannole]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Because Cobb doesn't seem to be using this as an opportunity to move forward. I welcome them if they want to use this a reason to embrace connectivity and partnerships with the rest of the region. But unfortunately they only seem to use it to fuel their rivalry with Atlanta.

That's how you see it because it's how you WANT to see it. You enjoy using everything about the project to fuel your hate for all things Cobb.

I have seen remarkably little gloating from people in Cobb about this. Plenty of cheer and excitement, certainly, but for something to qualify as gloating, you have to denigrate an opponent, and I see neither denigrating nor opponent from most people's mouths, particularly regular citizens. Outlandish statements from former chairmen of the Cobb GOP? Sure. But he doesn't speak for me, or for most others, for that matter. He is a clown and isn't elected to anything anymore.

Also, please bear in mind that this supposed ugly rivalry is not one sided. For crying out loud, the state had to take control of Johnson Ferry Road on the Fulton side of the river because Fulton County got caught manipulating the traffic signal at Riverside to deliberately cause backups on the Cobb side - basically the same thing that Chris Christie's administration did in NJ, just on a smaller scale. Moreover, if Fulton and Atlanta are so interested in improving regional connectivity and partnerships, why have they never run MARTA rail up the northwest side? They could have done so many years ago and gotten to within a mile or so of the new stadium even if Cobb didn't want to play ball, and served a large section of their own population at the same time. Unfortunately, it's probably too late now; as much as I would like to see MARTA rail come all the way up the northwest side, deep into Cobb, the ROW would likely be far too expensive, particularly on the Atlanta side of the river. I disagree with Cobb's historical opposition to MARTA, but the fact is that MARTA could have run up the NW side of Atlanta and the blame for the fact that it does not today lies not only with Cobb. It's Atlanta's fault, too. And don't say that a northwest line that doesn't extend into Cobb would have been too short and pointless. They also built the HE Holmes line back in the day, with the one-station Bankhead spur, and that's no longer than a Northwest line within the city limits would have been.

Things are much less black and white than you wish to portray them.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by evannole

Also, please bear in mind that this supposed ugly rivalry is not one sided. For crying out loud, the state had to take control of Johnson Ferry Road on the Fulton side of the river because Fulton County got caught manipulating the traffic signal at Riverside to deliberately cause backups on the Cobb side - basically the same thing that Chris Christie's administration did in NJ, just on a smaller scale. Moreover, if Fulton and Atlanta are so interested in improving regional connectivity and partnerships, why have they never run MARTA rail up the northwest side? They could have done so many years ago and gotten to within a mile or so of the new stadium even if Cobb didn't want to play ball, and served a large section of their own population at the same time. Unfortunately, it's probably too late now; as much as I would like to see MARTA rail come all the way up the northwest side, deep into Cobb, the ROW would likely be far too expensive, particularly on the Atlanta side of the river. I disagree with Cobb's historical opposition to MARTA, but the fact is that MARTA could have run up the NW side of Atlanta and the blame for the fact that it does not today lies not only with Cobb. It's Atlanta's fault, too. And don't say that a northwest line that doesn't extend into Cobb would have been too short and pointless. They also built the HE Holmes line back in the day, with the one-station Bankhead spur, and that's no longer than a Northwest line within the city limits would have been.

So, a few points on how MARTA could have built into Cobb, or, rather, why it hasn't. The same problems that are keeping rail from going up 400, or over I-20, are the ones which keep a North East extension from happening.

That is, there is not money for it. If MARTA had the funds, I can all but guarantee you they would have built it. The reality is, though, that they don't, so asking that question is a bit misguided in its assumption that the option was always there. Without the financial backing of Cobb's joining of the system, no rail could be funded up to the boarder, let alone into the county itself.

The Bankhead Spur was supposed to go further, but was stopped due to funding issues as well.

As much as I hate the regionalism and ridiculous ITP vs. OTP attitudes, when it comes to MARTA serving the Noth-West metro, Cobb has only themselves to blame.

[evannole]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

So, a few points on how MARTA could have built into Cobb, or, rather, why it hasn't. The same problems that are keeping rail from going up 400, or over I-20, are the ones which keep a North East extension from happening.

That is, there is not money for it. If MARTA had the funds, I can all but guarantee you they would have built it. The reality is, though, that they don't, so asking that question is a bit misguided in its assumption that the option was always there. Without the financial backing of Cobb's joining of the system, no rail could be funded up to the boarder, let alone into the county itself.

The Bankhead Spur was supposed to go further, but was stopped due to funding issues as well.

As much as I hate the regionalism and ridiculous ITP vs. OTP attitudes, when it comes to MARTA serving the Noth-West metro, Cobb has only themselves to blame.

That's entirely too simple. They ran the Northeast line almost to Gwinnett County, which has also refused to join MARTA. They ran the short but undoubtedly expensive line out to the west side of town. Would it have been more expensive, even 40 years ago, to run it up the northwest side of town? Yes, but much less so than today. And they certainly could have done it. They chose not to, probably partially because Cobb wasn't interested in joining at the time (but then again, neither was Gwinnett), but probably also because of NIMBYism within the city of Atlanta itself, in the heart of Buckhead. So, no, it's not only Cobb's fault. I have nothing to do with the Cobb County of the 60s, 70s, 80s or even early-to-mid 90s, and suspect I wouldn't have liked them or agreed with them on much of anything, but they are not the only ones to blame here

[jsvh]

The NW rail line would have been much more expensive to build out than the NE rail line along the existing freight rail way near Peachtree. It also would have had very low ridership without being able to extend into the Cumberland area. And Cobb would still be just as anti MARTA.

fourthwarden is right when he says Cobb has only themselves to blame.

But it is not too late to change. Hopefully we see a push from within Cobb to join MARTA in the coming years. I think reviving the HRT line could still be the best choice.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by evannole

That's entirely too simple. They ran the Northeast line almost to Gwinnett County, which has also refused to join MARTA. They ran the short but undoubtedly expensive line out to the west side of town. Would it have been more expensive, even 40 years ago, to run it up the northwest side of town? Yes, but much less so than today. And they certainly could have done it. They chose not to, probably partially because Cobb wasn't interested in joining at the time (but then again, neither was Gwinnett), but probably also because of NIMBYism within the city of Atlanta itself, in the heart of Buckhead. So, no, it's not only Cobb's fault. I have nothing to do with the Cobb County of the 60s, 70s, 80s or even early-to-mid 90s, and suspect I wouldn't have liked them or agreed with them on much of anything, but they are not the only ones to blame here

There is not enough density along the 75 corridor, ITP to support a $1B HRT line. The Gold presents land for redevelopment close to stations, we are seeing this now in Chamblee, Lenox, Doraville, and Brookhaven, and it was built in underused railroad ROW, just like the east and west lines. There are engineers at MARTA a lot smarter than us who make these decisions. Yes, there were NIMBYs in Buckhead who stopped the NW line from going to Northside Dr.
I will bet you if Cobb passed the sales tax, MARTA would have a plan for getting rail or some form of high frequency, fixed guideway transit to the county.

[evannole]

Originally Posted by jsvh

The NW rail line would have been much more expensive to build out than the NE rail line along the existing freight rail way near Peachtree. It also would have had very low ridership without being able to extend into the Cumberland area. And Cobb would still be just as anti MARTA.

fourthwarden is right when he says Cobb has only themselves to blame.

But it is not too late to change. Hopefully we see a push from within Cobb to join MARTA in the coming years. I think reviving the HRT line could still be the best choice.

I hope you're right. I could - and gladly would - walk or ride my bike to a HRT station by the Marietta Square if they used the CSX tracks.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by evannole

I hope you're right. I could - and gladly would - walk or ride my bike to a HRT station by the Marietta Square if they used the CSX tracks.

Mate, I would ride out to Marietta and bike out to Kennesaw Mt. if I could. The sad reality is that there just isn't the density, or public support, to take a rail line to the boarder of Cobb, nor has there been.

If Cobb joined today, I bet you we'd see rail up to Cumberland within the decade, maybe even further. MARTA had a plan of the North West corner, that's why they built the tunnels parallel to the Red/Gold line out of Arts Center.

Yes there was NIMBYism back then, but the real limit was money. MARTA had the money to go up to Gwinnett's boarder. They didn't, and don't have the money to go to Cobb's, not without Cobb's contribution.