Atlanta’s housing crisis: stop making it worse with bad arguments against growth (low income, income)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

How does one's attitude cause traffic problems? We have traffic problems because our public transit options are severely lacking for a city / metro of Atlanta's size and by the simple fact that most folks have cars and will continue to have cars for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I complain about traffic, but I'm not about to adopt a car free lifestyle no matter what part of town in which I live. That can be said for the vast majority of folks.

The attitude that "no matter what we do, people will still use cars" leads to the idea that roads are the only possible solution. That, in turn, means that people don't ever really have the choice to use anything but cars. It's a self-feeding, and self-perpetuating attitude that only fosters more traffic.

It won't happen over night, but we'll never have the opportunity to be anything else until we break that cycle.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

If the current residents don't want more density, who are you to say otherwise?

Current residents (really a portion of current residents) decide they don't want density, so they pressure their city reps for zoning rules and laws minimizing density. That, then imposes their, individual idea of land-use on others' properties. That makes it harder to develop, which raises prices for housing. That means that fewer people can afford to live in the city.

Get enough restrictions in place, and you hurt housing supply enough to create a shortage and affordability crisis. This is not limited to only those local areas, but is felt metro wide.

Why, then are a subsection of local residents allowed to make decisions that hurt things on a metro-wide basis, especially when it simultaneously limits others' ability to handle their own property?

[arjay57]

We had to run up to Sandy Springs this evening and I was amazed at all the beautiful high density housing that is being built out that way and in Brookhaven and Dunwoody. I'm not talking about apartments, although there a zillion of them, too. Given all these new townhouses and condos and dense single family neighborhoods in the close in suburbs, as well as in the city itself, it's hard to understand the argument that there's any kind of housing shortage.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

We had to run up to Sandy Springs this evening and I was amazed at all the beautiful high density housing that is being built out that way and in Brookhaven and Dunwoody. I'm not talking about apartments, although there a zillion of them, too. Given all these new townhouses and condos and dense single family neighborhoods in the close in suburbs, as well as in the city itself, it's hard to understand the argument that there's any kind of housing shortage.

Okay then, let me try and explain it:

1. People want to live in the metro
2. There is an increase in demand for housing
3. Due to various restrictions, this demand is not enough to justify the costs of building housing
4. Demand continues to grow
5. What housing there is is used at a growing occupancy rate
6. Prices go up until they justify building more housing
7. Various restrictions slow development process
8. Demand grows faster than housing is built, meeting neither current nor latent needs
9. Prices continue to rise
10. Occupancy rates continue to rise despite new supply

That's what's happening. We're seeing this because occupancy rates are still incredibly high, and prices are still going up.

Just because you see new housing doesn't mean it's enough to keep up with, let alone meet demand.

[Turnerbro]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Okay then, let me try and explain it:

1. People want to live in the metro
2. There is an increase in demand for housing
3. Due to various restrictions, this demand is not enough to justify the costs of building housing
4. Demand continues to grow
5. What housing there is is used at a growing occupancy rate
6. Prices go up until they justify building more housing
7. Various restrictions slow development process
8. Demand grows faster than housing is built, meeting neither current nor latent needs
9. Prices continue to rise
10. Occupancy rates continue to rise despite new supply

That's what's happening. We're seeing this because occupancy rates are still incredibly high, and prices are still going up.

Just because you see new housing doesn't mean it's enough to keep up with, let alone meet demand.

Well good lord how many houses need to be built

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Okay then, let me try and explain it:

1. People want to live in the metro
2. There is an increase in demand for housing
3. Due to various restrictions, this demand is not enough to justify the costs of building housing
4. Demand continues to grow
5. What housing there is is used at a growing occupancy rate
6. Prices go up until they justify building more housing
7. Various restrictions slow development process
8. Demand grows faster than housing is built, meeting neither current nor latent needs
9. Prices continue to rise
10. Occupancy rates continue to rise despite new supply

That's what's happening. We're seeing this because occupancy rates are still incredibly high, and prices are still going up.

Just because you see new housing doesn't mean it's enough to keep up with, let alone meet demand.

If there's demand for housing, trust me, developers will be there.

Based on what I've been told by friends in the business, however, there's been some tapping of the brakes. Lenders and developers do not want another fiasco like we had in the 2008-2013 era.

Haddow suggests apartment developers ‘take a little breather’

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by Turnerbro

Well good lord how many houses need to be built

More than we have now. Remember, we're supposed to grow to 8 million by 2040, and the city is supposed to grow to 1.5 million on its own by 2050.

Originally Posted by arjay57

If there's demand for housing, trust me, developers will be there.

Based on what I've been told by friends in the business, however, there's been some tapping of the brakes. Lenders and developers do not want another fiasco like we had in the 2008-2013 era.

Haddow suggests apartment developers ‘take a little breather’

I don't trust you. Not when things that we know to impede development are still in effect, and when both the occupancy rates stay strong and property values keep growing like they are.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

We had to run up to Sandy Springs this evening and I was amazed at all the beautiful high density housing that is being built out that way and in Brookhaven and Dunwoody. I'm not talking about apartments, although there a zillion of them, too. Given all these new townhouses and condos and dense single family neighborhoods in the close in suburbs, as well as in the city itself, it's hard to understand the argument that there's any kind of housing shortage.

All MARTA-served, close-in, first-ring suburbs. If we had expanded, fixed-guideway transit there would be pockets of this type of density 1/2 mile around transit stations.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by arjay57

If there's demand for housing, trust me, developers will be there.

Based on what I've been told by friends in the business, however, there's been some tapping of the brakes. Lenders and developers do not want another fiasco like we had in the 2008-2013 era.

Haddow suggests apartment developers ‘take a little breather’

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbe.../#27523b9faf10

Not enough. That's what this article discusses. Houston, Dallas and NYC combined for 13.5% of the nation's new housing units approved. No other metro was close. Houston and Dallas built enough to keep prices down. NYC added so many restrictions that price still went up rapidly. Other cities didn't build enough.

[brown_dog_us]

Originally Posted by arjay57

... it's hard to understand the argument that there's any kind of housing shortage.

When you look at the entire metro area there is a small shortage. The problem is that there isn't the type of housing that people want, in a place they want to live, and at a price they can afford. There is plenty of land to develop close to MARTA stations on the southside of town, but people don't want to live there. They want to live in Brookhaven.

[Turnerbro]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

When you look at the entire metro area there is a small shortage. The problem is that there isn't the type of housing that people want, in a place they want to live, and at a price they can afford. There is plenty of land to develop close to MARTA stations on the southside of town, but people don't want to live there. They want to live in Brookhaven.

Well if they can't afford Brookhaven they need to find a cheaper place to live. I don't consider that a housing shortage.