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While the bickering over pens and Porsches is cool and all...
The primary difference is that most commodities eg. office supplies, are sold at a fixed price.
Cars, and by the very definition are not fixed. The "s" in MSRP stands for suggested.
Now you can negotiate your paper clips and steaks and TV's, and in a lot of cases, you probably should, as you would be surprised sometimes at the discounts you can get merely by asking, but vehicles by the very distribution model that they use are positioned for negotiations before final purchase.
While the bickering over pens and Porsches is cool and all...
The primary difference is that most commodities eg. office supplies, are sold at a fixed price.
Cars, and by the very definition are not fixed. The "s" in MSRP stands for suggested.
Now you can negotiate your paper clips and steaks and TV's, and in a lot of cases, you probably should, as you would be surprised sometimes at the discounts you can get merely by asking, but vehicles by the very distribution model that they use are positioned for negotiations before final purchase.
I don't disagree with that at all, I was just trying to point out, what I think is an unfavorable double standard. I don't think there's anything sneaky or wrong about dealerships charging market value for an auto and certainly not sneakier than Staples making 900% profit on ink and Canon and HP having computer chips in the printer that kills an otherwise fine printer at a set amount of printed sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Costanza
What makes you think people don't price shop for other purchases such as TVs, computers, appliances, power tools, etc? OTOH most people aren't in your line of work and hence probably don't spend even a fraction of what you do on stationary and ink.
BTW, there is really no end to what frugality one can achieve if you spend enough time on it (e.g. shopping for the best price on each grocery item vs shopping at the store that generally offers best values). Everyone's time is worth something different, so everyone will have a different threshold on where they attempt to maximize savings. I don't print much at home, so maybe I'll spend $30-40 every two years on printers and/or ink. It's simply not worth my time to spend anything more than a couple minutes, if any, finding the best prices on these. OTOH I am quite happy on the prices I have researched & paid on larger ticket items.
PS: if you really want to start preaching frugality, why not recommend spending $5k every 10 years on cars, rather than $25 every 3 years?
I don't disagree with you at all, it wasn't a comment on whether or not you could, should or would save more on doing this and that, it was a comment on the opinion of dealerships and cardealers, which I think generally is unreasonably unfavorable.
I don't disagree with you at all, it wasn't a comment on whether or not you could, should or would save more on doing this and that, it was a comment on the opinion of dealerships and cardealers, which I think generally is unreasonably unfavorable.
I don't begrudge the idea of making a profit, but like I said in my first post, this is just an opening to be ripped a new one. I can almost guarantee that if you walk in and agree to the 'adjusted market price' a couple thousand above MSRP, it will be like throwing bloody seals into the shark-infested waters off Robben Island. The sales guy, his manager, and the F&I guy will be salivating at what else $$$$ they can tack on to this mother-lode of a deal...
I don't begrudge the idea of making a profit, but like I said in my first post, this is just an opening to be ripped a new one. I can almost guarantee that if you walk in and agree to the 'adjusted market price' a couple thousand above MSRP, it will be like throwing bloody seals into the shark-infested waters off Robben Island. The sales guy, his manager, and the F&I guy will be salivating at what else $$$$ they can tack on to this mother-lode of a deal...
Without commenting on the value and availability of Fusions, I've known people to pay far more than that to get a car that's attractive. People paid a lot over MSRP for the ZR1, the new Camaro was going for $10k above MSRP at launch, not to mention the GTR, and more exotic metal like Aston Martins etc.
I've personally been at dealers around the time the BMW E90 was released, and they wouldn't negotiate at all on the price (and this was Norway, they make more on each sale there), because they knew full well that someone would come in after me and buy it for that price.
There's no trickery, there are no sharks, there's what the market is willing to give. If the market is willing to buy the Fusion $2k above asking, you know what? In that case, that's it's worth. If it's not that attractive, it'll adjust itself soon enough.
Sorry, brainfart, was typing in the way out the door. What I meant was that they make close to 99% profit. An ink cartridge costs the store close to nothing (if they refill themselves, which many do), compared to what a dealer gets off a car, they're practically robbing you.
Cars, and by the very definition are not fixed. The "s" in MSRP stands for suggested.
MSRP is used in everything. When you buy a car stereo at Crutchfeild, you see the MSRP and then you see their price. DO you negotiate on their price, even if the entire system is going to cost you a grand or more? No. And yet they still ahve a 100% markup on a lot of those parts (after working in auto accessories, I know how much markup is built into the MSRP, and it can be quite a bit. Car speakers, for example, often carry a 200-300% markup).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
Somehow I doubt refilling ink cartridges is a path to riches.
Seriously, are you just not getting the concept of time value here or what?
It's merely an example of markup. We have no problem with markup percentages in the 50-300% range for small items (up to stereo gear and big screen TVs). And if you think it's NOT the path to riches, may I introduce you to Sam Walton? big profits on small items was his path indeed.
The thing is that yes, you CAN negotiate a bit on retail products, like electronics or food if you really want to. But in car deals, the negotiating is adversarial from the start and we as customers have helped make it that way by allowing and fostering the process. Customers and dealers come in to the buying process as adversaries on every single purchase. Viking and I know it's a fact, we're questioning why we have to make it that way. Of course everyone here thinks an additional dealer markup is a ripoff. We consider ANY dealer markup over what they pay to the factory as a ripoff on every single purchase, even though we DON'T consider a 100% markup on electronics at Best Buy to be a ripoff.
And the "adjusted market" markup is the same (as was mentioned) as charging more for entertainment tickets, more for high demand electronics when they come out (iPhone, PS3, etc), more for any short supply items (remember the law of supply and demand at work. Ever try to buy a snowblower AFTER the blizard hits? ). If the market is there, then that's what the product is worth. If it's not, the market adjustment will correct itself real quick.
As long as KBB continues to rate the value of used cars on the basis of zip code, it is only logical to assume that the value of a new car might be different from place to place, as well.
I have a car I got for 16k below sticker that when it first came out some people were paying 15k over sticker.
Same exact car, different times, different demand for the vehicle.
<shrug>
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). If the market is there, then that's what the product is worth. If it's not, the market adjustment will correct itself real quick.
