Is Baltimore an Northeastern city? (public school, education, metro area)

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

It also has a lower percentage than all of the Northeastern states and some of the Midwestern states. It's as close to Louisiana in this regard as it is to Maine and is substantially lower than Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. Maryland's percentage is also much higher due to transplants from the Northeast, particularly the rapid growth in the DC area.

So what? Maryland still has has plenty of white ethnics groups, which I believe make up the majority of the White population. Putting the census aside, do you honestly believe Baltimore is a Southern city? Assuming you've actually lived in Philadelphia at some point in you're life, you should be able to see some similarities between Philly and Baltimore.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

So what? Maryland still has has plenty of white ethnics groups, which I believe make up the majority of the White population.

They don't make up a majority. I'm not sure who's worse at reading data among you, DC's Finest and MDAllStar. The only cities where White ethnics make up a majority of the non-Hispanic White population are Boston, Buffalo, New Haven, New York, Philadelphia and Miami. In nearly all of the major metros of the Northeast, the Irish, Italians, Jews and Poles make up more than 30% of the metro (see data already posted above). This is something that's seen only in the Northeast.

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Putting the census aside, do you honestly believe Baltimore is a Southern city?

Geographically, yes. Culturally, not anymore. Southern culture has been largely diluted in the Baltimore and DC metros...more so in the DC metro area. That said, I don't think they are Northeastern. The absence of southern culture, imo, does not automatically kick a place into a different region.

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Assuming you've actually lived in Philadelphia at some point in you're life, you should be able to see some similarities between Philly and Baltimore.

I never said there weren't similarities. Two cities can be very similar and still be in different regions. Baltimore and Philadelphia were similar in 1940 when the former was unequivocally southern.

But I don't really care as much about the North/South argument as I do about the data. You can argue all day long about northerness and southerness, but you can't really argue against the data.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

They don't make up a majority. I'm not sure who's worse at reading data among you, DC's Finest and MDAllStar.

Maybe me, DC's Finest, and MDAllStar are actually the same person.

The only cities where White ethnics make up a majority of the non-Hispanic White population are Boston, Buffalo, New Haven, New York, Philadelphia and Miami. In nearly all of the major metros of the Northeast, the Irish, Italians, Jews and Poles make up more than 30% of the metro (see data already posted above). This is something that's seen only in the Northeast.

You forgot to mention German Americans, as there are much more of them in the Northern States than the Southern states.

I never said there weren't similarities. Two cities can be very similar and still be in different regions. Baltimore and Philadelphia were similar in 1940 when the former was unequivocally southern.

It's debatable whether Baltimore was truly Southern back in the 1800's, let alone the 1940's.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Maybe me, DC's Finest, and MDAllStar are actually the same person.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

You forgot to mention German Americans, as there are much more of them in the Northern States than the Southern states.

German ancestry is actually not less common in the South than it is in the Northeast. New Jersey, New York and Connecticut aren't much more German than Virginia and the Carolinas. New England has a relatively low percentage of German ancestry. A high percentage of German ancestry is more of a hallmark of the Midwest than it is the Northeast.

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

It's debatable whether Baltimore was truly Southern back in the 1800's, let alone the 1940's.

It's debatable to you. The funny thing about you--and your compadres too--is that you're willing to make all types of claims with no evidence, faulty evidence, misinterpreted evidence, etc. You just throw stuff out there with no support.

All you really have to do is consult the historical record. I mean, if you have a history professor at Johns Hopkins clearly stating the city was southern, interviews, biographies, the Baltimore Sun referring to it as a southern city, what more do you really need? Of course, you can argue until the cows come home that "that means nuttin, Bajan," but it doesn't mean nothing. That's just a juvenile dismissal of the historical record. Is there really anything ambiguous about this statement in the Baltimore Sun?

Baltimore was once clearly a Southern city - with all of the pride of the South and all of its prejudices.

Or this interview from the UMD archives.

Baltimore is a southern city. When I came here, Baltimore was as southern, if not more so, as my hometown of Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Or John Waters flat out saying...

Baltimore was the South.

Or...

Washington, D.C., was a city of Southern culture, like Richmond. So was Baltimore...until all the goddamned government workers moved in from strange, horrible Northern places like Ohio and Minnesota and took over.

I'm not sure how you simply dismiss those out of hand and maintain any type of credibility. Do you think these statements were made for the sole purpose of future use on City-Data?

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I wouldn't be surprised.



German ancestry is actually not more common in the South than it is in the Northeast. New Jersey, New York and Connecticut aren't much more German than Virginia and the Carolinas. New England has a relatively low percentage of German ancestry. A high percentage of German ancestry is more of a hallmark of the Midwest than it is the Northeast.



It's debatable to you. The funny thing about you--and your compadres too--is that you're willing to make all types of claims with no evidence, faulty evidence, misinterpreted evidence, etc. You just throw stuff out there with no support.

All you really have to do is consult the historical record. I mean, if you have a history professor at Johns Hopkins clearly stating the city was southern, interviews, biographies, the Baltimore Sun referring to it as a southern city, what more do you really need? Of course, you can argue until the cows come home that "that means nuttin, Bajan," but it doesn't mean nothing. That's just a juvenile dismissal of the historical record. Is there really anything ambiguous about this statement in the Baltimore Sun?



Or this interview from the UMD archives.

That statement didn't prove anything. All those guys said was that Baltimore is a southern city. People used to say "the earth was flat" but that doesn't mean it's true.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

That statement didn't prove anything. All those guys said was that Baltimore is a southern city. People used to say "the earth was flat" but that doesn't mean it's true.

People used to say New York is a northern city. Doesn't mean it's true.

[KodeBlue]

I will say this, and leave it at that: If John waters, or anyone from Baltimore say it's southern, how is their opinions any more valid than the rest of Baltimore saying that it isn't southern? It really isn't any more valid. They aren't any more native to Baltimore than the rest of us. Also, Bajan, and a few others are comparing the Baltimore area to other large cities in the Northeast Corridor, but what about other areas of the Northeast? York, Harrisburg,Lancaster, don't have the same demographics in the same percentages as large northeast cities, so are they not northeastern as well? Just want to inject this thread with a little logic and critical thinking.... carry on.

[westsideboy]

I would hesitate to call people of German descent "ethnic whites." Per my genealogy research, I am mostly German by blood. My cultural heritage from my ancestors?

- Saurkraut at all holiday meals
- I say Gesundheit when someone sneezes
- I like German beer and use late September/early October as an excuse to buy the good stuff
- I am Catholic, although this heritage is hardly German, it just comes to me from my German ancestors.

For the most part, German-Americans have been part of the East Coast for so long that there isn't any real connection, real or imagined, to the old country. Heck, most people of German descent on the East Coast came to America before Germany as a nation-state even existed. Our ancestors were from the Palatine, Bavaria, Stuttgart, Saxony, etc.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by KodeBlue

I will say this, and leave it at that: If John waters, or anyone from Baltimore say it's southern, how is their opinions any more valid than the rest of Baltimore saying that it isn't southern? It really isn't any more valid.

It's not about opinions. It's about historiography and the record of historical views. If you're going to question Baltimore's history as a southern city--that is, how people viewed it in 1860, 1920, 1940 or 1960 as opposed to today--then you need to present some type of evidence. It's no different from examining views of slavery or women's suffrage in the 19th Century through the historical record. Contemporaneous evidence, usually in the form of letters, articles, books, etc., is the best kind. You can also look at how scholars of today write about the Baltimore of old. That evidence typically paints a picture of Baltimore as a deeply southern-rooted city. The descriptions of Baltimore are very different from the descriptions of Philadelphia or New York.

Originally Posted by KodeBlue

Also, Bajan, and a few others are comparing the Baltimore area to other large cities in the Northeast Corridor, but what about other areas of the Northeast? York, Harrisburg,Lancaster, don't have the same demographics in the same percentages as large northeast cities, so are they not northeastern as well?

First, the reason we compare Baltimore to large, coastal urban centers (and some interior ones) like Philadelphia is because Baltimore is often likened to those cities (in this forum). It's the large metros that received the lion's share of immigration. What sense would it make to compare a coastal metro of 2.8 million people to small, more interior metros? If the claim is going to be made that Baltimore is just a "little Philly," particularly with regard to its White ethnic profile, then it's only fair to compare it to that city. Is the argument now that Baltimore is not a northeastern city like Philadelphia, but instead a northeastern city in the mold of Lancaster?

Second, Harrisburg is a Northeastern city because it is located in the Northeast. Pennsylvania is in the Northeast and no one ever disputes that. It is therefore a northeastern city by default. A lot of Northeastern metros have relatively similar demographic profiles, but those profiles aren't what make those cities Northeastern or non-southern. The demographics speak more to the economic history of these places (industrialization, little slavery and therefore lower AA populations).

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

For the most part, German-Americans have been part of the East Coast for so long that there isn't any real connection, real or imagined, to the old country. Heck, most people of German descent on the East Coast came to America before Germany as a nation-state even existed. Our ancestors were from the Palatine, Bavaria, Stuttgart, Saxony, etc.

That's true. By the time of the Revolution, Pennsylvania was already a third German. There's not much (meaning hardly any) German ethnic consciousness left in Pennsylvania.

Kazal, R.A.: Becoming Old Stock: The Paradox of German-American Identity. (Hardcover)

The Germans, however, did gives us soft pretzels, and for that we will forever owe a debt of gratitude.