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Thanks for bringing the dates out on these two incidents. It's not like it's a common occurance here I don't believe . We are new residents here as of Sept 5th.
I will be 58 years old on Nov 1st. I was born and raised around firearms and firearm safety. It'll be 36 years ago on 11/1 that I had a guy smash his way into my house late at night. I was well armed and knew then, and know even more now, about firearms. Due to my familiarity with firearms I was able to get through it without shooting this man. I was also able to hold him, and call the police and they came and took him to jail. Not a great way to finish up ones 22nd birthday.
I bring this up because I get a bit tired of reading about how, if you have a firearm, the bad guy will take it away from and use it on you. I am very glad I didn't kill this man that night. Lucky for him he didn't try to approach me while I was holding him too. I am 100% sure I would have shot him had he tried that night.
For many people, and especially older folks, a good guard dog is a great option, and will usually keep the bad guys away. They'll find someone else to prey on.
And yes, I've read forums where I am told in Hawaii, you are expected to run away from your home and give it to the home invader rather than defend yourself. Well, that is a decision let's hope not many of us will ever have to make. I made my decision on how to handle a home invasion 36 years ago, and I stand by it.
I feel extremly bad for this 69 year old lady. Her life is forever changed in a big way.
jon
Yeah ... fair enough ... I have firsthand experience with what guns do, as well, sorry to say ... extensive military action, long ago ... prefer my dog ... even if he does f*rt a lot ...
Not to make light of the horrible incident in HPP or Volcano but the dates of attacks are more than two years apart.
The HPP attack was recent the Volcano attack was in 2009 per dates on article...
Posted: Nov 24, 2009 3:16 PM PST
I believe on of the local online newspapers added the 2009 article in a location that did not make this obvious.
Actually, the two home invasion incidents occurred 23 months apart. The Volcano incident occurred on November 19, 2009 and the Hawaiian Paradise Park incident occurred on October 22, 2011. Volcano home invasion*11-20-09 - Media Releases Archive - 2009 - Hawaii Police Department
Puna attempted murder (update)*10-23-11 - Media Releases 2011 - Hawaii Police Department (http://www.hawaiipolice.com/media-releases-2011/2011/10/23/puna-attempted-murder-update-10-23-11.html - broken link)
Considering that the number of housing units on the Big Island is approximately 82,500, two home invasions within 23 months seems rather insignificant. However, if that same rate of home invasions (2/82,500 or 0.0024%) is applied to an area that has a 3.5 million housing units (like Los Angeles County), the number of home invasions would be 85 over 23 months (or about 3.7 home invasions per month). Fortunately, even the worst parts of Los Angeles County don't have that many home invasions per month. Hawaii County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau Los Angeles County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
What happens when people get nervous and arm themselves against home invasions is that the 14 and 15 year olds in the neighborhood get shot by accident when they are just sneaking through the yard -- or similar. Too many husbands, wives, kids, and others have been mistaken late at night in the dark by each other. Dog knows who is who. Easier to pay for a mistaken dog bite, if it should happen, than to pay for a funeral and grief that lasts a lifetime.
I like that advocacy.
Statistically, people arming themselves with guns, do have a much higher chance of someone they know dying by that same gun, than some intruder dying from it.
I'm reluctant to get a handgun for that very reason.
A beautiful argument for a well-trained dog though.
Considering that the number of housing units on the Big Island is approximately 82,500, two home invasions within 23 months seems rather insignificant. However, if that same rate of home invasions (2/82,500 or 0.0024%) is applied to an area that has a 3.5 million housing units (like Los Angeles County), the number of home invasions would be 85 over 23 months (or about 3.7 home invasions per month). Fortunately, even the worst parts of Los Angeles County don't have that many home invasions per month.
I wonder how Miami/South Florida would do with this?
For some reason, I associate South Florida with home invasion. Not sure if its a legitimate connection or not though.
I wonder how Miami/South Florida would do with this?
For some reason, I associate South Florida with home invasion. Not sure if its a legitimate connection or not though.
Let's do a little quick math...
There are approximately 990,000 housing units in Miami-Dade County. If we use the Big Island "home invasion rate" of 0.0024% over 23 months, that would amount to 24 home invasions (or about one per month) for Miami-Dade County. Miami-Dade County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Unfortunately, there are no official statistics on home invasions to do an actual comparison. Since home invasions are often a combination of crimes, they are often classified as burglaries, robberies, aggravated assaults, attempted murders, etc. by most government and law enforcement agencies. Thus, other than scanning the news in particular localities for "home invasion" stories, there aren't many ways of obtaining discrete "home invasion" data. In high-crime areas, all home invasions might not be deemed particularly "newsworthy" and some might go unreported. Keeping that caveat in mind, over the past two years it looks like a new "home invasion" story makes the news in Miami-Dade County approximately once every two months... miami home invasions 2011 - Google Search miami home invasions 2010 - Google Search
I'm reluctant to get a handgun for that very reason.
I strongly prefer shotguns for the purpose of home defense for many reasons.
FYI: A 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 00-buckshot has roughly 3 times the 'stopping power' of a .45 pistol, and the .45 packs a great more punch than, say, a 9 mm or a .38.
While a 12-gauge is a bit much for many elderly (and some of those smaller stature who are not elderly) to handle, many can handle a 20-gauge or a .410. Buckshot pellets also do not have a lethal range that is anywhere near that of a handgun (this is very important if you miss -- quite a few people, if not a vast majority, can't hit anything except the wall in their house with a pistol or revolver). The considerable extra length of a shotgun barrel over, say, a 4-inch pistol barrel greatly increases the likelihood of hitting the target for most people.
I know some advocate large dogs as a deterrent. I do not. I was attacked by such dogs back when I was a child when I did nothing but deliver a newspaper or stand in a public park talking quietly with a friend some 30 yards from the dog's owner. I still have a few scars decades later.
I wonder what the ratio is of such dogs attacking (even killing) the innocent to the number of 'bad guys' they attack/maim/kill? And, how does this compare to one for firearms?
Sounds like a Freak-o-nomics subject to me. Knowing some of the underlying data, the answer may not be what people expect ...
Stupid dog owners are a problem. Pit bulls and the like can be dangerous. Stupid gun owners are a problem. Guns are not toys; they are dangerous weapons. I advocate protection. Just keep in mind the catch phrase used by the comedian Ron Wright, "You can't fix stupid". Whatever method of 'protection' you choose, please act wisely.
Extrapolating violent (or any) crime rates based on two incidents over two years time is not statistically relevant for any community size ... Hawaii, statewide, ranks 36th out of 50 states for violent crime per capita ... Florida ranks 4th (U.S. Census) State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Rate
You can only meaningfully break that down into specific types of violent crimes in specific communities and neighborhoods if you have statistically meaningful scales to work with. If there is one murder in Podunkville, Anystate, population 99 people, over a period of hundred years you have a pretty thin basis. If you try to extrapolate that one murder by using only two years as reference, rather than a hundred, the number becomes rather frightening ... and also misleading as hell.
Hawai'i is one of the very low violent crime states. Period.
With regard to dogs, there are numerous advantages to dogs over guns ... not the least of which is "open carry" as a deterrent. Furthermore, think about the scenario: walking down a street and being approached by unknown stranger behaving oddly -- you pull your pistol to deter / defend yourself? Is the stranger up to no good or have you pulled your pistol on a person for no reason? What if that person also has a pistol? What if the stranger is law-abiding, such as yourself -- but sees you draw down on him/her? OK corral time? Etc. ----- Or, you take your doggie for a nice evening walk and get exercise for the both of you and no one up to no good bothers to approach you to begin with because Fido is there wearing his superhero fur?
I'm taking the walk with my dog and keeping my health up and weight down in the process.
Living in fear of random and remote "What If's" sucks. Living with a dog is enlightening.
Extrapolating violent (or any) crime rates based on two incidents over two years time is not statistically relevant for any community size ... Hawaii, statewide, ranks 36th out of 50 states for violent crime per capita ... Florida ranks 4th (U.S. Census) State Rankings--Statistical Abstract of the United States--Violent Crime Rate
You can only meaningfully break that down into specific types of violent crimes in specific communities and neighborhoods if you have statistically meaningful scales to work with. If there is one murder in Podunkville, Anystate, population 99 people, over a period of hundred years you have a pretty thin basis. If you try to extrapolate that one murder by using only two years as reference, rather than a hundred, the number becomes rather frightening ... and also misleading as hell.
Hawai'i is one of the very low violent crime states. Period.
Of course, any data on "home invasions" is statistically insignificant, since there are no uniform or official standards for its collection. While the State of Hawai'i as a whole might rank low in terms of overall violent crime in comparison to other states, there are some violent crimes that occur more often in Hawai'i. For instance, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the State of Hawai'i had a overall "violent crime" rate (ie. murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) of 274.1 per 100,000 persons in 2009. During that same year, Iowa had an overall "violent crime" rate of 294.5 per 100,000 persons, which places it higher on a "violent crime ranking list." However, if one looks at particular types of violent crime, one would find that Hawai'i had a murder rate of 1.8 per 100,000 persons and a robbery rate of 79.5 per 100,000 persons in 2009, while Iowa's murder rate was 1.3 per 100,000 people and its robbery rate was 42.2 per 100,000 persons. Iowa's "aggravated assault" rate of 220.2 per 100,000 persons in 2009, compared to the Hawai'i "aggravated assault" rate of 163.1 per 100,000 skewed the overall "violent crime" rate in favor of Hawai'i. Yet, the fact remains that a person was more likely to be murdered or robbed in Hawai'i than in Iowa during 2009. http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0308.pdf
Similarly, some localities in Hawai'i have higher rates of violent crime than some localities in other states. For instance, in 2009 the overall "violent crime" rate for Honolulu was 280 per 100,000 persons, while the "violent crime" rate for Henderson, Nevada was 234 per 100,000 persons. http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0309.pdf
Hopefully, most folks know enough math to realize that a calculated Hawai'i County "home invasion rate" of 2 per 82,500 households or 0.0024% over a 23-month period is much closer to 0.0% than it is to 1.0%. One's chances of being murdered, robbed, raped, or assaulted in the entire State of Hawai'i are much higher than they are of being a victim of a "home invasion" on the Big Island.
I read the above analysis to my dog ... he responded:
"Woof!"
I asked for more detail ... real clarification of his position:
"Wrooooooor-roooo" was what I got.
Best I can tell what he is saying is: 'if you want to parse statistics to pieces and live in fear, knock yourself out' ...
I asked if he felt it was that simple ... he turned around in about a half dozens circles and flumped to the cushion on the floor with a "mmmmfff"
Now, I know, from our life together, this means: "Eat when hungry -- sleep when tired -- chase the ball when it rolls -- wake me when it's time for a walk."
And that was all I could get out of him.
As for me, if you want to dissect stats, be prepared to embark on a practically endless trial of comparing social circumstances and motivations and dynamics of every type for each community you worry about ... see where you fit for risk, if you have any sanity left when you have compiled your report.
I grew up on the streets of Detroit, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C. ... joined the service and went to war and fired guns and ducked and dodged and took some damage ... and more ... Now I'm walking the dog. Every day. And lovin' it. Don't worry about being attacked. Don't carry a gun. And would be the same even if I didn't have the dog.
My guy weighs 115 lbs ... not an ounce of fat ... won't let anyone near my van, boat, or me ... just a big teddy-bear with 42 teeth . That all said, also have another female for my wife ... girl dog is about 60 pounds and can do the same damage as the 115 pound male. And one of my sons has a 40 pound dog that can rip a strip out of pretty much any pair of pants he takes a mind to.
No, these aren't pit-bulls or fighting dogs. But they are trained watch dogs. My wife's dog and mine are both certified hearing service dogs. Their tasks include alerting us to various alarms and our cell phone text signals. Another is to orient us toward approach of strangers. It isn't too hard to teach dogs these things if you pick the right temperament to start with. And, while I do not advocate for schutzhund / attack-dog training, a good watchdog is preferable to a gun, imho.
What happens when people get nervous and arm themselves against home invasions is that the 14 and 15 year olds in the neighborhood get shot by accident when they are just sneaking through the yard -- or similar. Too many husbands, wives, kids, and others have been mistaken late at night in the dark by each other. Dog knows who is who. Easier to pay for a mistaken dog bite, if it should happen, than to pay for a funeral and grief that lasts a lifetime.
**********************************************
You said the Dog was a "trained" Dog. The big problem with many firearms owners is that after they figure out how to load it and pull the trigger they think they don't need any further "training". It takes hours and hours of practice to learn how to handle firearms safely and become proficient with them. Handguns are even more difficult.
Gunluvver2
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Furthermore, think about the scenario: walking down a street and being approached by unknown stranger behaving oddly -- you pull your pistol to deter / defend yourself? Is the stranger up to no good or have you pulled your pistol on a person for no reason? What if that person also has a pistol? What if the stranger is law-abiding, such as yourself -- but sees you draw down on him/her? OK corral time? Etc. ----- Or, you take your doggie for a nice evening walk and get exercise for the both of you and no one up to no good bothers to approach you to begin with because Fido is there wearing his superhero fur?
