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You said the Dog was a "trained" Dog. The big problem with many firearms owners is that after they figure out how to load it and pull the trigger they think they don't need any further "training". It takes hours and hours of practice to learn how to handle firearms safely and become proficient with them. Handguns are even more difficult.
Gunluvver2
Yes ... entirely true ...
Also true: no amount of training and practice will guarantee that the person in possession of a gun will be of a balanced personality, and clear of mind to function with such a simple device that can be so deadly so easily ...
... and the history of the human race presents a pretty clear picture of how much we can rely on good judgement and self-control and mental health being in short supply commonly -- huh.
I strongly prefer shotguns for the purpose of home defense for many reasons.
FYI: A 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 00-buckshot has roughly 3 times the 'stopping power' of a .45 pistol, and the .45 packs a great more punch than, say, a 9 mm or a .38.
While a 12-gauge is a bit much for many elderly (and some of those smaller stature who are not elderly) to handle, many can handle a 20-gauge or a .410. Buckshot pellets also do not have a lethal range that is anywhere near that of a handgun (this is very important if you miss -- quite a few people, if not a vast majority, can't hit anything except the wall in their house with a pistol or revolver). The considerable extra length of a shotgun barrel over, say, a 4-inch pistol barrel greatly increases the likelihood of hitting the target for most people.
I know some advocate large dogs as a deterrent. I do not. I was attacked by such dogs back when I was a child when I did nothing but deliver a newspaper or stand in a public park talking quietly with a friend some 30 yards from the dog's owner. I still have a few scars decades later.
I wonder what the ratio is of such dogs attacking (even killing) the innocent to the number of 'bad guys' they attack/maim/kill? And, how does this compare to one for firearms?
Sounds like a Freak-o-nomics subject to me. Knowing some of the underlying data, the answer may not be what people expect ...
Stupid dog owners are a problem. Pit bulls and the like can be dangerous. Stupid gun owners are a problem. Guns are not toys; they are dangerous weapons. I advocate protection. Just keep in mind the catch phrase used by the comedian Ron Wright, "You can't fix stupid". Whatever method of 'protection' you choose, please act wisely.
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Market Maker makes a great point, especially this part
"While a 12-gauge is a bit much for many elderly (and some of those smaller stature who are not elderly) to handle, many can handle a 20-gauge or a .410. Buckshot pellets also do not have a lethal range that is anywhere near that of a handgun (this is very important if you miss -- quite a few people, if not a vast majority, can't hit anything except the wall in their house with a pistol or revolver)"
I agree a shotgun is definitely the best choice in almost any type of home defense situation. For many years I was an over the road truck driver. My weapon of choice was a 12 Gauge Model 870 pump. IIRC with the plug removed it held six(?) rounds. I kept a round loaded with Rock Salt for the first shot followed by two rounds of #9 then three of OO buckshot. Within five feet anything fired out of a twelve gauge will probably be lethal, even Rock Salt. At a distance of over 5 feet Rock Salt and #9 shot will probably not penetrate a typical sheet rock wall. In just about any type of home invasion situation the issue will be settled before you ever need the third shot of OO Buckshot. Usually just the sound of a slide being racked is enough to deter ALMOST anyone.
Statistically, people arming themselves with guns, do have a much higher chance of someone they know dying by that same gun, than some intruder dying from it.
I'm reluctant to get a handgun for that very reason.
A beautiful argument for a well-trained dog though.
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There are several flaws in that statistic Tiger Beer. The statistics used in determining that figure include death by SUICIDE, HOMICIDE and ACCIDENTS. So statistically there MAY be more people killed by a gun in their house than there are INTRUDERS killed by a gun but I doubt it.. From personal experience I know a gun can be a deterrent EVEN when it is not fired.
With regard to dogs, there are numerous advantages to dogs over guns ... not the least of which is "open carry" as a deterrent. Furthermore, think about the scenario: walking down a street and being approached by unknown stranger behaving oddly -- you pull your pistol to deter / defend yourself? Is the stranger up to no good or have you pulled your pistol on a person for no reason? What if that person also has a pistol? What if the stranger is law-abiding, such as yourself -- but sees you draw down on him/her? OK corral time? Etc. ----- Or, you take your doggie for a nice evening walk and get exercise for the both of you and no one up to no good bothers to approach you to begin with because Fido is there wearing his superhero fur?
I'm taking the walk with my dog and keeping my health up and weight down in the process.
Living in fear of random and remote "What If's" sucks. Living with a dog is enlightening. [/quote]
I agree with you 100% Nullgeo. However there are times when a gun may be the best choice.
Mahrie said "an armed society is a polite society," and nullgeo said "he's big and brown and furry and stinky."
Crime, guns and dogs (likely pit bulls), just what we need more of in Hawaii.
I would rather hear "an educated society is a polite society."
Mahrie, I always thought there was something funny about your peace, love, and shalom message. But I didn't know there was gunlust in the back of your mind. But you are not alone on these forums, or any forum in the US of A.
nullgeo said: "Meanwhile, back in Hawaii, where guns are almost entirely absent from the daily culture ...." And I wish dogs were too (so many on the beaches, loose in the neighborhoods, killing natives).
Mahrie said "an armed society is a polite society," and nullgeo said "he's big and brown and furry and stinky."
Crime, guns and dogs (likely pit bulls), just what we need more of in Hawaii.
I would rather hear "an educated society is a polite society."
Mahrie, I always thought there was something funny about your peace, love, and shalom message. But I didn't know there was gunlust in the back of your mind. But you are not alone on these forums, or any forum in the US of A.
nullgeo said: "Meanwhile, back in Hawaii, where guns are almost entirely absent from the daily culture ...." And I wish dogs were too (so many on the beaches, loose in the neighborhoods, killing natives).
Gee, you missed the part (in the next post I wrote after) : "No, these aren't pit-bulls or fighting dogs. But they are trained watch dogs. My wife's dog and mine are both certified hearing service dogs. Their tasks include alerting us to various alarms and our cell phone text signals. Another is to orient us toward approach of strangers. It isn't too hard to teach dogs these things if you pick the right temperament to start with. And, while I do not advocate for schutzhund / attack-dog training, a good watchdog is preferable to a gun, imho."
My wife was born profoundly deaf ... and I lost approx. 2/3 of my hearing in military action, along with other permanent damage.
And what "native" was killed by a dog? Tell me about that.
Me, I'd rather more dogs and fewer people ... far far fewer people. Dogs aren't destroying the world we all inhabit ... people are.
There are approximately 990,000 housing units in Miami-Dade County. If we use the Big Island "home invasion rate" of 0.0024% over 23 months, that would amount to 24 home invasions (or about one per month) for Miami-Dade County. Miami-Dade County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau
Unfortunately, there are no official statistics on home invasions to do an actual comparison. Since home invasions are often a combination of crimes, they are often classified as burglaries, robberies, aggravated assaults, attempted murders, etc. by most government and law enforcement agencies. Thus, other than scanning the news in particular localities for "home invasion" stories, there aren't many ways of obtaining discrete "home invasion" data. In high-crime areas, all home invasions might not be deemed particularly "newsworthy" and some might go unreported. Keeping that caveat in mind, over the past two years it looks like a new "home invasion" story makes the news in Miami-Dade County approximately once every two months... miami home invasions 2011 - Google Search miami home invasions 2010 - Google Search
Sometimes the way people describe Miami and South Florida, is that home invasion is a very regular occurence.
While any home invasion is too much. That's not too much, really.
I strongly prefer shotguns for the purpose of home defense for many reasons.
FYI: A 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 00-buckshot has roughly 3 times the 'stopping power' of a .45 pistol, and the .45 packs a great more punch than, say, a 9 mm or a .38.
While a 12-gauge is a bit much for many elderly (and some of those smaller stature who are not elderly) to handle, many can handle a 20-gauge or a .410. Buckshot pellets also do not have a lethal range that is anywhere near that of a handgun (this is very important if you miss -- quite a few people, if not a vast majority, can't hit anything except the wall in their house with a pistol or revolver).
That's the problem with guns. We can't expect every individual in society to be trained as perfect marksmen and be adept at firearms.
The ones who need it the most, the elderly, the weak, etc.
Anyways, I'm in Japan, where the issue of this is nearly non-existant, and Hawaii with its high Asian population, equally makes it not much of a concern whatsoever.
I think if I were on the Big Island, which has a lot of private lots without a whole lot of other stuff out there, interspersed with some ice-users/meth addicts....I'd probably just go with the trained dog route.
I'd think a dog would be a bigger deterrant to a meth addict looking to steal and sell a person's garage tools (or whatever they're looking for). As if you're just waiting with a gun, the addict will have no idea, and the confrontation could become a confrontation, whereas the dog would just deter the guy.
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Furthermore, think about the scenario: walking down a street and being approached by unknown stranger behaving oddly -- you pull your pistol to deter / defend yourself? Is the stranger up to no good or have you pulled your pistol on a person for no reason? What if that person also has a pistol? What if the stranger is law-abiding, such as yourself -- but sees you draw down on him/her? OK corral time? Etc. ----- Or, you take your doggie for a nice evening walk and get exercise for the both of you and no one up to no good bothers to approach you to begin with because Fido is there wearing his superhero fur?
