Is Evergreen liberal like Boulder? (Ward: living in, zoning, law)

[Market Mama]

One rogue dufus of a professor doesn't make the entire university a "cesspool". It's that kind of hyperbole that undermines what might otherwise be a good argument. Tenure is a catch-22 for universities, and I can see both sides; especially with the current political posturing that labels everyone who disagrees with a conservative viewpoint as evil spawn of the devil. I'm pretty middle-of-the-road myself, and trust neither political party and find the extremes of both conservatives and liberals to be pretty out of touch with the realities of everyday America.

[Market Mama]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

MMama .... thanks for the lecture on common sense horsemanship on the trails.

I, however, have ridden as you describe and have had way too many Boulder encounters with bicycle riders who blocked the trails going uphill, and then came screaming past us on the downhills, pretty much out of control at the speed they were riding. When they deliberately reach out to touch my horse in passing, that's unacceptable.

I've also been assaulted by bicyclists and hikers who were frustrated by the presence of horse poop on the trails ... either they slipped in it, or just stepped in it and soiled themselves. But that was no cause for them to berate our group of riders and fling poop at us ....

Since I ride "natural" style, with only a halter and a loose rein rope ... I've also been berated by some of them because they "know" that I can't be in control of my horse and thus it's unsafe for all of us. I even had one day with my riding instructor, riding with similar tack ... get challenged on the trail. She proceeded to ask her horse to piaffe up/down the trail, and back up and sideways around or over the obstacles ... then asked the astounded hikers if that was adequate control and communication with her horse to satisfy them. (She's a former Canadian olympic dressage trainer/rider ...). They admitted they were impressed, but there was no apologies given for their totally unfounded and ignorant rant about our tack.

While I like to ride "friendly" on the trails, it's a problem for me/my horses to have all kinds of folks want to touch my horse. I don't mind showing him off, but the ignorant want to "pet" him by "patting" him. I try to tell them it's OK to stroke him, but petting is an unfriendly gesture to which he takes offense. Most folks simply don't understand the difference, or how their body language can alarm a horse ... and I'm the one left with reasuring my horse that he's OK after they leave or we move down the trail, after they've "patted" him. ....

That wasn't meant as a lecture, just a description of my riding experiences in and around Boulder, which are obviously very different from yours. I've never had anyone reach out to touch my horse as they went flying by! Most bicyclists politely stop as they come up to us. And over the years only a very few people have asked to touch or pet my horses, who actually lap up all the admiration (they're a couple of cuties) and attention. No one has ever scolded me, ranted or flung poop at me. Maybe we're riding in alternative universes.

[sunsprit]

MMama ... I'll take your characterization of Mr Churchill as the basis of your profound ignorance of the professional path of how a professor is hired, retained on faculty, and then stays around long enough to be awarded "tenure" at a major University.

It happens because academic experts, his peers, in his field of study and teaching/research/ ... are impressed with his "abilities" and "skills" and academic and research performance.

So, the only way a (to quote you ...) "rogue dufus" gets into a tenured position and has much faculty support is if they're all cut from the same cloth. There's simply too many checks and balances in the whole process over years of time where someone can be turned down for advancement and that prized goal of tenured faculty status. To me, that's a "cesspool" of performance ....

[sunsprit]

Nah, I've ridden virtually every open space trail along the Front Range from the just North of Golden area (west into the hills), to the South side of Boulder into the foothills, to as far North as the Rabbit Mountain riding area by Longmont.

The contacts I had with discourteous and outraged people was all in the Boulder open spaces. I had a number of times where I was on trails that were reserved for hikers and equine riders only, and had bicyclists in force out there, too ... trying to make a statement about "equal access".

Believe me, if I could have choosen trails where the bicyclists were excluded and stay off trails where they had exclusive use ... I would have gladly done so to stay out of their way.

Oh, and my horse(s) are hams, too.

[Market Mama]

sunspit -- different people see, experience and interpret the world in different ways. Your way seems to leave you feeling pretty negative and judgmental about a lot of things. Whereas my way seems to draw more positive energy towards me, at least from my personal perspective. I like my way, but don't either begrudge or judge yours. Rant away!

[Market Mama]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Nah, I've ridden virtually every open space trail along the Front Range from the just North of Golden area (west into the hills), to the South side of Boulder into the foothills, to as far North as the Rabbit Mountain riding area by Longmont.

I've covered pretty much the same area, and had almost exclusively good experiences. So maybe it really is a different universe, or at least different energy.

[Market Mama]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

So, the only way a (to quote you ...) "rogue dufus" gets into a tenured position and has much faculty support is if they're all cut from the same cloth. There's simply too many checks and balances in the whole process over years of time where someone can be turned down for advancement and that prized goal of tenured faculty status. To me, that's a "cesspool" of performance ....

While I don't have your obvious in-depth knowledge of academia, I have, for many years, had a lot (over a hundred total) of CU students working for me as part-time and temps. None of them have indicated that they feel they are paying tuition to a "cesspool". In fact, they say most of the classes are giving them what they need and I don't hear any disrespect for their professors – even though many of my employees are very conservative, already firm Republicans. Could it be that you are extrapolating from insufficient data?

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

beg to differ with some of the above analysis re CU Boulder being "somewhat conventional and even conservative" in the context of ward churchill ....

if CU was in fact conventional and conservative, no such "professor" as ward churchill would have blended in so seamlessly and with tenure as he.

It was only the outrage at his antics, by others outside of the Boulder university culture that he brought much (deserved) attention to himself, and the issue was driven by the rest of Colorado's communities and government. Here was the flagship of the Colorado University system, yet they were protecting Churchill's positions under "freedom of speech" concerns when, in fact, his whole history of becoming a prof was suspect and his academic work was found ... by peer review of people who favor him ... to have plagarism within it.

In my world, being found out to have violated the professional standards, ethics, and code of conduct is more than sufficient grounds for dismissal. Indeed, if exposed of such gross misconduct, one would be expected to resign and minimize further embarrasment to one's associates.

I have no doubt that the whole Churchill affair has adversely affected the perception of CU as a legitimate institution of higher learning, and I know that is has negatively affected alumni donations. In addition, there's Colorado families who no longer desire to send their children to that in-state University ... but are chosing to pay the costs of out of state tuition elsewhere, where they are hopeful that such an environment as the cesspool where Churchill "taught" might not be the norm.

I am a Colorado taxpayer, but no longer a Colorado resident. Had I the opportunity, I'd be voting out the CU Board of Regents and getting some folks in there with some sense of responsibility to the people they serve ... the citizens of Colorado who expect a legitimate institution of higher learning for their money.

i would offer that the fact that churchill got tenure might have a bit to do with administrative oversight versus any cultural unconventionality, but i could be incorrect on that. i would also offer that casting his "investigation", at the outset, almost as a mccarthyism-tasting kind of hunt for anything to string him up by - however right or wrong it might have turned out to be - seems, to me, to reflect something rather "conservative" within the regents and state at large. i.e., it seemed, to me, to derive in part from a reaction to an unpopular opinion (right or wrong) that was expressed in an even more unpopular way, at least in some of these parts. relative to many universities and departments within, what i have seen of CU-boulder can seem rather intellectually conventional and conservative, i.e., tending to the "safe" and especially "tangible". but that's just been my own exposure.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by Market Mama

Point taken on the university, they did indeed handle the Churchill "thing" pretty well. And you are right about those "progressive" growth policies, which came back to bite us on our collective butt whether or not we supported them in the first place.

Of course there are a lot of "beautiful" people around -- but you have to factor in all those young, athletic college students (who are tilting the average) and the fact that the whole place by its very nature encourages outdoor activities and draws active people.

As for "totally anglo" I run a large call center full of ordinary working folk, and over a third of them are close-to-middle-class Black and Hispanic, just ordinary Americans. And I bring in home-baked apples pies and everyone scarfs them down.

Lastly this country as a whole is currently "not entirely open to differences".

my personal perspective is that even (maybe even especially) outside of the university, young-ish and beautiful tends to be common. lots of rockclimbing/cycling tanned and wealthy/au-natural people - wholefoods shoppers - in the area. it also seems safe to say that black and hispanic (or anyone else "of color", for that matter) tends to be very much the exception, not the rule, in boulder, no? as for openness to different opinions, for a place it's size, stature, and tendency to tout itself as some sort of "liberal" bastion, doesn't it seem to you that boulder can seem especially 1D seeming?

[Market Mama]

Originally Posted by hello-world

i would offer that the fact that churchill got tenure might have a bit to do with administrative oversight versus any cultural unconventionality, but i could be incorrect on that. i would also offer that casting his "investigation", at the outset, almost as a mccarthyism-tasting kind of hunt for anything to string him up by - however right or wrong it might have turned out to be - seems, to me, to reflect something rather "conservative" within the regents and state at large. i.e., it seemed, to me, to derive in part from a reaction to an unpopular opinion (right or wrong) that was expressed in an even more unpopular way, at least in some of these parts. relative to many universities and departments within, what i have seen of CU-boulder can seem rather intellectually conventional and conservative, i.e., tending to the "safe" and especially "tangible". but that's just been my own exposure.

That certainly gels with the take I get from the many CU students who have worked for me over the last several years. They generally tend towards a very conservative view of the world. And to a person they have written him off as a rogue, dufus prof. But, hey, what would *they* know?