Public Employee Unions want to change Prop. 13 so busness property tax goes up & up more every year. (Oakland: construction, subdivision)

[CaliRestoration]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Apparently fewer than a third of taxpayers have been allowed to keep more of their money:

"Just 32 percent of the public reports having more take home pay because of the tax cuts, including only 48 percent of Trump supporters and 35 percent of the middle class. More than half say they see no change in their paychecks and 16 percent are unsure."
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/27/cnbc...-tax-cuts.html

Not that I trust an "opinion survey" especially one from CNBC, but that makes sense. Since half of the population basically pay no taxes, why would they get any money back?

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Wasted post as that has nothing to do with Prop 13, the subject.

Neither do yours or CaliR's comments in reaction that post

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by CaliRestoration

Not that I trust an "opinion survey" especially one from CNBC, but that makes sense. Since half of the population basically pay no taxes, why would they get any money back?

Now you don't trust CNBC, that's special...

[CaliRestoration]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Now you don't trust CNBC, that's special...

No, it's just logical.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by CaliRestoration

Not that I trust an "opinion survey" especially one from CNBC, but that makes sense. Since half of the population basically pay no taxes, why would they get any money back?

Notice no factual response.

[TheFlats]

Originally Posted by aslowdodge

Do you even live and own property in California? Do you own a business or do you work for someone?

That's the point. You try to make it about personal anecdotes but this is a broader market issue. Yes I feel for those who have had their business close their doors. But that does not mean that California is so unique that it needs to alter it's property tax code to protect businesses with rising property values. Texas hasn't, New York hasn't. We'll be fine with a normalized structure.

Originally Posted by expatCA

When interest was higher it did not lower prices, when Mello Roos came about it did not keep house prices from rising. HOA's did not stop house prices from rising. Property taxes will not keep prices from rising, or in States with higher property taxes than CA prices would not still be rising. The only thing that lowers prices is a drop in the number of people who can afford to buy the homes on the market. Please show me any time in the last 30 or 40 years where property taxes in any State impacted the housing prices?

Prices have been rising in California for decades because it is a desirable place to live. Removing Prop 13 protections will not drastically reduce housing prices but it will most certainly not raise them. That's just a boogeyman argument and totally economically illogical.

Originally Posted by TheFlats

Property tax should be based off of the value of the property. Not that hard people.

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

You have just described Prop 13 which at its core states "Value at the time of transfer"

What Prop 13 did was change the method where Property was taxed based upon the county Tax Assessor's best guess... it eliminated the highest and best use based on someone's opinion.

Are you being purposefully disingenuous or do you truly not see the difference? I will use an example you understand. Someone in East Oakland has a house that had a "value at the time of transfer" of 300K when they bought it a decade ago. Now that house can be sold tomorrow for 600K. Is the value of the house 300K? Is the occupant paying property taxes on the value of the property? No. 'Value of the property at the time of transfer' does not equal 'value of the property'. That's why there are three extra words added.

You can argue for the necessity of Prop 13 for other reasons but be accurate in your statements.

Originally Posted by Electrician4you

Raising taxes won’t do squat for affordable housing.
What will is building more housing

100% agree. The biggest thing we can do to lower housing prices in California is to simply build more housing. How to do that is the tough part. Removing unnecessary regulations, setbacks, parking minimums, fees and restrictions on "granny flats", impact assessments, legal protection from NIMBY lawsuits, etc. will go a long way to making it easier to build here. Altering Prop 13 will only have a small localized effect on areas where housing values have risen drastically without much turnover.

[aslowdodge]

Originally Posted by TheFlats

That's the point. You try to make it about personal anecdotes but this is a broader market issue. Yes I feel for those who have had their business close their doors. But that does not mean that California is so unique that it needs to alter it's property tax code to protect businesses with rising property values. Texas hasn't, New York hasn't. We'll be fine with a normalized structure.

Yes but personal anecdotes makeup part of that broader market issue you refer to. You can't just say that one doesn't count since it happens to many.

On the other hand you mention that a business needs to just bootstrap itself up and that it's a competitive market. Consider that you said younger people have a harder time,maybe they just need to bootstrap themselves up also instead of complaining about it.

Prop 13 has been around for a long time. People have made financial plans for their future based on it. If their retirement is based on the appreciation and prop 13 gets reversed and plummets values, yes maybe more people can afford to buy, but then it is at the expense of those that depend on the value of the home as their retirement.

[TheFlats]

Originally Posted by aslowdodge

Consider that you said younger people have a harder time,maybe they just need to bootstrap themselves up also instead of complaining about it.

You were the one complaining about how unfair it would be to take away the advantages older business owners enjoy. Me simply pointing out the disadvantage does not equal complaining, just projection on your part (like a ton of Boomers do with Xs and Millenials).

[Ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by TheFlats

Are you being purposefully disingenuous or do you truly not see the difference? I will use an example you understand. Someone in East Oakland has a house that had a "value at the time of transfer" of 300K when they bought it a decade ago. Now that house can be sold tomorrow for 600K. Is the value of the house 300K? Is the occupant paying property taxes on the value of the property? No. 'Value of the property at the time of transfer' does not equal 'value of the property'. That's why there are three extra words added.

You can argue for the necessity of Prop 13 for other reasons but be accurate in your statements.

Of course not... anything but an Arms Length Sale is a guess when it comes to value.

By definition ALL real estate is unique and as such subject to specific performance.

Anyone that has been around the last 10 years in East Oakland KNOWS sales prices have been all over the place... thankfully the Voters of California addressed this with Prop 13... just because some idiot with no money down can get a Liar Loan and buy property as if it was a Monopoly Board Game is no reason the neighbors need to be drawn into the drama...

Case in point... I have followed a East Oakland Home that sold in the 1980's for 80K... it resold several times and reached 510K in 2007... totally incredible in my opinion for a 1922 1050 square feet home

In 2009 it goes foreclosure and sells for 100K and not it was not stripped or gutted... in fact, the buyers had installed a new roof.

It sold several times since and most recently for 580k

You are not suggesting the neighbors be part of the insanity of property losing 80% of value only to recover???

When people buy a home they must often Qualify to buy... unless paying cash.

The folks across the street would have been driven out simply by the wild fluctuations and this is not my America where the elderly and others are driven from their homes simply because the market is filled with irrational buyers...

I have lived in Washington State and was on the receiving end of an 80% tax increase year over year when Washington States version of Prop 13 called I-747 was tossed... taxes exploded and my case it was based on a single sale to land speculator that caused everyone to suffer... when it was all said and done, the speculator walked away from the property when the market turned.

Food, Shelter Clothing are the essentials of life... and this is why the voters, against all odds made Prop 13 law and why Gov Brown has repeatedly said Prop 13 is settled law... not to mention the corruption, suicide and prison sentences that resulted pre Prop 13 when taxes were based on OPINION of VALUE

It makes for interesting conversation when other states are brought into the mix... as I just did and other with Texas... but to be fair... these State do not levy all the taxes that California does... Oregon has no Sales Tax, Washington, Nevada, etc... no California Income Tax...

[TheFlats]

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

Of course not... anything but an Arms Length Sale is a guess when it comes to value.

Oh come on. An appraiser's valuation is just a guess? How about when every house listed on your block is selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than your price paid decades ago? Just totally have no idea what the value of the house is? Please.

You can keep throwing out edge case anecdote after anecdote but it doesn't help your argument. People aren't being rendered destitute in Washington because their property tax structure isn't set up like ours. We need to keep prop 13 because otherwise there will be suicides and prison sentences? What? Get a grip.

Originally Posted by Ultrarunner

The folks across the street would have been driven out simply by the wild fluctuations and this is not my America where the elderly and others are driven from their homes simply because the market is filled with irrational buyers...

So you're saying Texas is less American than California?