Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My apologies but that's a bunch of brainwashed bull. Modern combustion cars are very quiet. After around 35mph your tires make more noise than your engine lol. Unless you have a loud exhaust. Then all bets are off. That aside, quiet isn't necessarily a good thing - that's why EVs have to make a government-mandated sound at low speeds.
Hmmm … and “up to 35 mph” your ICE engine makes more noise than tires. And how much driving occurs around us all everyday at under 35mph? … all to say nothing of how the original question was referring to *ICE engines* of all kinds, not just contemporary model passenger cars. Tell me how all the commercial trucks, both gas and diesel, are “very quiet” … then add in every other kind of engines in common use from lawn mowers, to blowers, to chain saws, et … *quiet*?. …. Um, lol
Quote:
[COLOR="green]"Not stinky[/color]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
Modern cars barely smell unless you stick your nose into the tailpipe directly. With all the emission control systems I hear the newest cars are even difficult to poison gas yourself to death.
Again, we aren’t just limiting the discussion of ICE engines to contemporary models of passenger cars. But besides that, I wasn’t referring to tailpipe stink. I was referring to the stench of fuels and oils that, no matter how careful most people and operators may try to be, permeate our streets and garages.
Quote:
No pollution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
Wrong again. Tons of pollution. Your EV takes several years (depending on model) to become cleaner than an equivalent ICE car. Look it up, it's a fact. It's just that the bulk of the environmental damage comes from production rather than the tailpipe. But it's still there. And if you total your EV before the break even point you just polluted more with it. Or if you don't drive it much.
There’s less “environmental damage” from all the mining and manufacturing and operation of an ICE engine / transmission than from electric motors and batteries? I do doubt that. “Or if you total” … “or if you don’t drive much” … lol. Speciousness defined.
Quote:
Cleaner in every respect everywhere inside and out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
Absolutely no clue what that means. Did people suddenly stop cleaning their gasoline cars' interior or something? Because I know I clean mine fairly regularly so please 'splain.
“No clue” eh? I’ll *’splain*: oil and grease everywhere. Electric motors are very clean by any comparison.
Quote:
Super torque at all times (which makes for excellent handling as well as traction).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
This part is so extremely amateurish that I don't know where to start. First of all, explain to me how huge amounts of torque from 0 rpm make better traction? Because it's kind of the other way around and it takes your computer all it has to control that wheel spin. Plus because of the low end torque EVs with good power tend to eat through tires much faster than ICE cars (you can look this up). Which is again bad for the environment because tires are made of oil. Handling is aided much more by the battery location which lowers the center of gravity. But it also makes EVs very heavy compared to ICE equivalents which wears out the roads much more. Oh, and then because of lack of multiple gears acceleration force tends to wane as the electric motor spins up. Which is why most EVs are good accelerating but their top speed is quite low.
“Amateurish” eh? … I have driven diesels for years for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is their torque at the boat launch ramp (and elsewhere). Electric motor torque is even more positive. I don’t race on street or drag strip, so I don’t need to worry about wheels breaking free and laying sophomoric patches of rubber on the pavement. And any amount of increase in tire wear from electric vs ICE is laughably modest. Speciousness again. But nice of you to acknowledge how “handling” is aided by the weight and low center of gravity in EVs. Yup.
Top speed on EVs is an intentional design function addressing loss of battery efficiency at high speeds. You can look that up.
Quote:
Fast, if you like rapid acceleration (entering highways, for example).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
Not all EVs are fast. The Leaf and Fiat 500 are quite slow. And while the absolute record is held by an EV currently there are non-production ICE cars that will eat it for lunch. Hell, my 35 year old Porsche is faster to 60 than a base model 3. There are plenty of gas cars nowadays that put up similar numbers anyway.
Again: speed on EVs is an intentional design function addressing loss of battery efficiency at high speeds. You can look that up.
And speed records aren’t my metric for sanity in transportation. That’s a sport function. And can be addressed by jet engines if you are rabid.
Quote:
And then the low repair frequency and costs … and no, the eventual expensive battery replacements aren’t any worse than replacing engines, transmissions …
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
An average battery replacement for a Tesla is $13-20K. You can replace several engines and transmissions in an average Camry for that. The one thing I'll give you there's less maintenance frequency. In that regard EVs do win but that's the only thing I see so far.
Annnnd again, speciousness. Not all EVs are Teslas. Battery replacement costs are lower on various other EVs … and battery technology is a work in process in a free-market technocracy. Consumerism will drive innovation and market pricing.
Yes, less maintenance frequency is HUGE. I drive about 30,000 miles a year. For me it will be bigger than HUGE.
Quote:
“Higher up front costs” offset fuel,savings? Not over the long run they don’t … depending on how much you drive, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
Yes, they do offset the fuel savings. And yes, you're right, depends on how much you drive. The less you drive the less you save.
Yes. They do offset fuel costs. Particularly for high milage drivers like me.
Quote:
Quote:
As for how much electricity will cost in the future: pure speculation on your part. Sources are certain to expand in variety and we live in free-market competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchromesh
They do expand but so does the demand. And with EVs the expansion is much higher than normal. Plus, as you said - free market. If the utility company *can* charge you more why wouldn't they? What are you going to do - buy a gas car? Lol.
Well this is silly. *They* can only charge competitively. So, unless there is illegal price fixing collusion, the market will always gain what the consumers can bear. To say nothing of all the legal controls and constraints on utility companies that exceed oil producers.
You love ICE cars, obviously. Right there in your screen name. Fine. The industry is changing around us all for reasons based in science: fossil fuels are killing us.
Newsom's announcement came up on the national news.
"Do your part", "just few more days" (2 weeks to slow the spread?)...the dystopian language from Starship Troopers war ads.
It's just the start of what's coming, that dystopia.
What's really weird, also, is the guy's eyes and mimics: either he's on drugs or just mad.
I used to have concerns he'd end up becoming the president at some point...but looking at his personal degradation over recent years I think this is moot now. I wonder when that rape accusation happens that will send him to where Cuomo is.
True all this advocating people to ride the bus, train, or live in high density urban living became a nightmare when the same people push the fear propaganda of crowded places the last two years. No bus riding(unless with essential needs they decree and must wear a mask), locked in a peanut shaped apartment, no waiting rooms, chairs, nor restrooms, etc if they have to run errands or appointments. I feel really bad for those tiny apartment dwellers who don't have a car the last two years and had to depend on the bus which only ran as little as once an hour or even less at times over the pandemic. Only good thing it was free for a year in many cities.
Its all about control or trying to please the Agenda, vehicles including buses, heavy duty trucks, etc burn cleaner than ever in history due to advanced emissions controls and better engine technology, you barely notice them running and no visible smoke or fumes(anyone back in the days would remember that), yet they think you are so naughty if you dare to keep the air conditioning or heater running on a cold day and must not warm up your car on a subzero day and more places even crack down on this, I would not be so surprised if they apply the rule to EVs soon as doing that in an EV would stress the gird and require them to fire up dirty power plants which they wont tolerate. With fuel so expensive these days do you think drivers would idle or leave them running just for the fun of it? I bet 99% would not do so if they don't have a good hardship or operational requirement to do so.
CA should be more worried about strenghtning the power gird and adding alternative fuel stations to cope with the increase in such vehicles rather than Bickering or banning. EVs are really just a bandaid solution not long term, as electricity always comes from somewhere else and that may be a dirty source. They really need another energy source i.e fuel cell, Compressed natural gas. Opps the state wants to ban that as well.
Last edited by citizensadvocate; 09-08-2022 at 08:26 AM..
Newsom's announcement came up on the national news.
"Do your part", "just few more days" (2 weeks to slow the spread?)...the dystopian language from Starship Troopers war ads.
It's just the start of what's coming, that dystopia.
What's really weird, also, is the guy's eyes and mimics: either he's on drugs or just mad.
I used to have concerns he'd end up becoming the president at some point...but looking at his personal degradation over recent years I think this is moot now. I wonder when that rape accusation happens that will send him to where Cuomo is.
I'm trying to figure out what, even a single word, in this ^^ relates to the thread topic
Wouldn't be the first time a thread veered off topic. Now would it, Mutt?
It certainly wouldn’t! And many diversions are fun little side trips for sure.
But what was particular about that one was it was made by a brand new poster echoing exactly the same bitter off-topic political and personal screed used by another ‘new poster’ banned from the forum just a couple days previously.
Meanwhile others here continue to ponder California’s future sans ICE cars.
We have two on our 12 feet Lowe Jon boat, a Honda BF 5 gas engine, 5 Hp, and an electric motor, about 2 HP. Top speed, Garmin verified, is 17 mph with the Honda, or 5 mph with the Spirit Plus, which is NOT a trolling motor. Purchase cost was similar.
I prefer the Spirit 1.0 Plus. Lighter, completely quiet, extremely reliable, (not like you, Honda!) and the speed is adjustable down to the speed of the grass growing in shade, so to speak. For trolling that is a big plus. I figured the Spirit lets me fish 5-6 hours on our small Paradise lake at the cost of maybe 60 cents for the charging.
However. On the Thermalito Afterbay, which is part of the Lake Oroville complex, the Honda can cover big water much faster; if I can get it start after it gets hot. I must carry tools and spark plugs, just in case. When the wind blows hard and the water gets rough, the Honda will take me back; once it runs it runs really strong. With the Spirit, under demanding conditions, I could rowe or pray once the lithium battery is done.
In short, both have advantages, neither is superior, and having a choice is great.
Lighter, completely quiet, extremely reliable, (not like you, Honda!) and the speed is adjustable down to the speed of the grass growing in shade, so to speak. For trolling that is a big plus. I figured the Spirit lets me fish 5-6 hours on our small Paradise lake at the cost of maybe 60 cents for the charging.
However. On the Thermalito Afterbay, which is part of the Lake Oroville complex, the Honda can cover big water much faster; if I can get it start after it gets hot. I must carry tools and spark plugs, just in case. When the wind blows hard and the water gets rough, the Honda will take me back; once it runs it runs really strong.
I do believe, that this is the very first post I've ever seen, that a Honda was mentioned with anything but praise. Regardless of "sitting time" or abuse.
(I've been active on forums that have had Honda products for the better part of 25 years...)
Hmmm … and “up to 35 mph” your ICE engine makes more noise than tires. And how much driving occurs around us all everyday at under 35mph? … all to say nothing of how the original question was referring to *ICE engines* of all kinds, not just contemporary model passenger cars. Tell me how all the commercial trucks, both gas and diesel, are “very quiet” … then add in every other kind of engines in common use from lawn mowers, to blowers, to chain saws, et … *quiet*?. …. Um, lol
Actually tons of driving occurs at over 35mph at all times. Hell, I live in the city and going over 35 is well within the legal speed limit in several places. Not to mention that I enjoy the sound of my engine. And not to mention that EVs are mandated to make a special sound at lower speed to warn pedestrians/bicyclists/etc of their presence. So your argument regarding cars specifically makes little sense. Interestingly enough the Model 3 LR I got to test drive made a ton of wind noise on the freeway. It was actually at least as noisy as my old Subaru.
Commercial vehicles maybe a different story but they still haven't deafened anyone. Plus full EV replacements of larger commercial vehicles won't be happening for quite some time considering how much battery will be required for that.
Quote:
Again, we aren’t just limiting the discussion of ICE engines to contemporary models of passenger cars. But besides that, I wasn’t referring to tailpipe stink. I was referring to the stench of fuels and oils that, no matter how careful most people and operators may try to be, permeate our streets and garages.
Well, we can bring the ancient EVs from 70s and 80s into this chat with their glacial acceleration, lack of features and under 100 mile range to even it out. But would you want to? I think not.
Really, stench of fuels and oils? Unless you do your own oil changes where do you get to smell oil in a modern car? Do you constantly stick your nose into the engine? As for fuels - sure, you can smell a little gas at the station while pouring it in but it's honestly such a small discomfort (if you can call it that) that it's not even worth mentioning. However, do you have any idea how much toxins are released into the atmosphere if an EV battery burns? I dare you to read about that.
Quote:
There’s less “environmental damage” from all the mining and manufacturing and operation of an ICE engine / transmission than from electric motors and batteries? I do doubt that. “Or if you total” … “or if you don’t drive much” … lol. Speciousness defined.
You're welcome do doubt it all day long but I highly recommend you do some basic researching on your own. At this point due to the industrial processes involving lithium, cobalt, etc the current environmental damage done by a single EV creation is far higher than from manufacturing an entire gasoline vehicle. The overall damage also heavily depends on the grid powering the EV. In states and countries where coal-powered plants dominate the landscape it could take well over a decade to even things out. I understand that upsets you but facts don't care about your feelings.
Quote:
“Amateurish” eh? … I have driven diesels for years for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is their torque at the boat launch ramp (and elsewhere). Electric motor torque is even more positive. I don’t race on street or drag strip, so I don’t need to worry about wheels breaking free and laying sophomoric patches of rubber on the pavement. And any amount of increase in tire wear from electric vs ICE is laughably modest. Speciousness again. But nice of you to acknowledge how “handling” is aided by the weight and low center of gravity in EVs. Yup.
When I said "amateurish" I was being polite. You're welcome to do some googling of your own on this but anything heavy with high torque will obliterate tires very fast. You said it yourself, EV torque is more positive. In reality EVs have instant torque and a lot more weight than equivalent gas cars so yes, it's a real problem. According to google regular tires wear out 20% faster on an EV. From this article: "EVs need special tires because they put more pressure on them than ICE vehicles. EVs are heavier. Ford’s F-150 Lightning weighs 1600lbs more than a similar conventional F-150. This extra weight, which comes mainly from heavy batteries, means tires have to deal with more resistance as they drive.
Electric motors also deliver more torque than their gas and diesel counterparts. Torque delivery is also instantaneous in an EV, placing immediate and heavy pressure on the car’s tires as the driver presses the accelerator. EV tires typically feature better grip to deal with this torque, but that friction comes at the cost of faster wear and tear."
Quote:
Top speed on EVs is an intentional design function addressing loss of battery efficiency at high speeds. You can look that up.
So what you're saying an all out crazy sport sedan like the Tesla Plaid which has extra motors and an actual track mode has a top speed limit because Tesla suddenly became conscious about battery efficiency? Give me a break. The only "intentional design function" here is to save a few $$$ in order to avoid installing a multi gear transmission on a car that could actually use it. But that's typical Tesla - charge people major $$$ and cost cut the vehicle into oblivion.
Quote:
And speed records aren’t my metric for sanity in transportation. That’s a sport function. And can be addressed by jet engines if you are rabid.
Our discussion currently is EVs vs ICE which includes sport functions, especially considering how performance is constantly pushed by EV zealots such as yourself. And then when we start talking about it in detail suddenly it's not your metric? Interesting. But the truth is the performance aspect is a huge selling point for a lot of people (me included). I see absolutely no reason for a smaller EV to exist if it doesn't have a 0-60 in 5s or less. Which is why I just don't get the Fiat 500 and Nissan Leaf. They're basically golf carts.
Quote:
Annnnd again, speciousness. Not all EVs are Teslas. Battery replacement costs are lower on various other EVs … and battery technology is a work in process in a free-market technocracy. Consumerism will drive innovation and market pricing.
You really seem to like that word for some reason. I get it, you try so hard to sound smart. Too bad it's not working. Battery replacement costs are also a huge factor. The problems with batteries are manyfold here. One issue is that it's very easy for a manufacturer to create batteries that deliberately expire right after the warranty is over (planned obsolescence). Apple is guilty of doing that a lot. That will force the consumer to either buy a new appliance or pay lots of money for a replacement. And considering that the regular maintenance on the car is much less with an EV as discussed this would be very beneficial to the manufacturer who can't make money on ICE engine service and consumables anymore.
Then there's the whole OTA update thing that limits the battery capacity after the fact. Again, Apple did that and go sued for it and Tesla just did that too on older Model S cars and hopefully will get sued for it as well. Basically with EVs you as a consumer have very little control over your car even after the warranty expires. And that's a big no no in my book.
Quote:
Yes, less maintenance frequency is HUGE. I drive about 30,000 miles a year. For me it will be bigger than HUGE.
Well, once again, your maintenance will just come as a single very expensive one-time bill instead. But I hear ya. I put around 10K miles/year on 3 different vehicles combined so to me a yearly oil change and an occasional valve adjustment mean very little even if I have to do 3 of them per year.
Quote:
Yes. They do offset fuel costs. Particularly for high milage drivers like me.
The key, once again, is *for now*. Wait a decade, chances are you'll be paying close to the same gas tank prices.
Quote:
Well this is silly. *They* can only charge competitively. So, unless there is illegal price fixing collusion, the market will always gain what the consumers can bear. To say nothing of all the legal controls and constraints on utility companies that exceed oil producers.
How can they charge competitively if there's usually no competition in the area? I mean hell, the same PG&E charges very different rates throughout its entire empire. You definitely pay more in San Francisco than you would in some far away East Bay hell hole. So where does this competitive rate come from? Plus they can always invent new fees.
Quote:
You love ICE cars, obviously. Right there in your screen name. Fine. The industry is changing around us all for reasons based in science: fossil fuels are killing us.
This again is silly talk. If you think for a second that even at 100% EV (which won't happen for decades) that fossil fuels will suddenly go away you're very wrong. They're here to stay indefinitely until we can come up with some sort of alternative energy sources that will fully replace them. And I doubt that'll be happening in my lifetime.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
*quiet*?. …. Um, lol
What?
And many diversions are fun little side trips for sure. 
