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You know, definitions of "conservative" and "religious" are relative. As a Canadian born and raised in diverse, "secular," "liberal" southern Ontario and Montreal (where millions of parents choose to enroll their kids in taxpayer-funded Roman Catholic schools. There ain't NO taxpayer-funded religious schools down here), I find PLENTY of smaller cities and towns (and some other not so smaller ones) in Canada and the northern states to be quite conservative, and, yes, more religious than what I (and, perhaps you) am used to.
My former in-laws in rural Manitoba are fundamentalist Christians who have conservative attitudes about many things. My late MIL in Owen Sound was the same. But that doesn't bother ME. I firmly believe in Live and Let Live. I also believe in the principle of freedom of religion, which guarantees any US or Canadian citizen his/her right to freely (and peacefully) assemble and practice his/her religion, but should also guarantee one's right to practice one's religion WITHOUT RIDICULE.
And, having lived in Metro Detroit for years, my own opinion is that southeast Michigan and southwestern Ontario are pretty darn conservative, comparatively speaking.
Are you, in your judgment of millions of people in the South, practicing that famous Canadian "tolerance"? What kind of "tolerance" IS that, exactly? Seems pretty selective to me.
BTW, I'm liberal-leaning and not particularly religious, so don't be rushing to judge me the way you have all the "backwards" people in the US South.
No I haven't, but I've been down there many times, and have heard anti gay conversations right out in the open, like it was ok if anyone was listening, Sorry, but it's not. I also have friends who live in the south, and although it's not bad in the big cities, they have also been exposed to very anti gay hostilities outside of the cities. I'm not saying everyone inThe south is like that, but more are than in other parts of the country. Sorry if you have had different experiences, but don't belittle mine!
No I haven't, but I've been down there many times, and have heard anti gay conversations right out in the open, like it was ok if anyone was listening, Sorry, but it's not. I also have friends who live in the south, and although it's not bad in the big cities, they have also been exposed to very anti gay hostilities outside of the cities. I'm not saying everyone inThe south is like that, but more are than in other parts of the country. Sorry if you have had different experiences, but don't belittle mine!
Um, if you think there are no people in Canada who hold deeply anti-gay beliefs simply because they don't have anti-gay conversations "right out in the open," then you're deluding yourself.
And I'm not belittling your experiences. On the contrary, I'm pointing out how YOU belittle others for their "conservative" and/or "religious" beliefs. If it's not cool for anyone to make anti-gay comments (and it isn't), then why is it cool for YOU to denigrate others' "conservative" or "religious" beliefs and/or comments?
The US and Canada are very large, diverse countries and more open-minded, collectively, than many other countries. There's plenty of room for all kinds of opinions, and we all have to learn to live with them, whether we like them or not. Yes, a free society can be tough at times, but better than the alternatives.
Um, if you think there are no people in Canada who hold deeply anti-gay beliefs simply because they don't have anti-gay conversations "right out in the open," then you're deluding yourself.
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I think that many people have a tendency to point at incidents like those reported by north42 (which I don't dispute BTW) as evidence of intolerance or racism, or even of more intolerance and racism in certain places.
It's an easy rapprochement to make but it doesn't account for the fact that some cultures are simply more outspoken than others. English-speaking Canadians in particular are fairly reserved and not very outspoken as a people in general. Certainly in comparison to Americans and also French-speaking Canadians. (On the other hand, Anglo-Canadians are often stereotyped as being passive-aggressive, which might mean some of them have these types of feelings but keep them cooped up inside.)
Anyway, this "reserve" does not necessarily make them more tolerant* or non-racist per se.
That said, it could well be (and we can even assume) that people like north42 like the "under wraps" type of social atmosphere and culture that you find in Anglo-Canada, and that's perfectly fine. I do agree that it often makes for a more "genteel" ambiance. Many people like this and it might be one of the reasons why as a society (Anglo-)Canada is one of the most desirable places in the world to move to.
But the 2+2=4 equation that just because people keep to themselves about such things more, that they are more tolerant and less racist, is not necessarily an automatic.
*Let's also not forget that the word "tolerance", often cited as a Canadian virtue, is not a synonym of acceptance, but rather means that you're pretty much OK with something that you'd otherwise find displeasing.
I've explored parts of the south and really liked it. It does feel like the poorest and most backwards region in Canada/USA, but that's fine. The people were nice. There were many fat people and deeply religious types, but no one foisted their unhealthy foods or beliefs on me.
Location: Cloquet, Minnesota, United States of America
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I took my first trip there around age 18. We drove to Florida from Ontario. Not much different except there were so many black people. I had only seen a few in my life before that. I moved to Minnesota later and make a trip to the gulf coast or Carolinas every 2-3 years. I have to say that the accusations of racism sound like some have been watching too many movies. I am a "native" and have never had a single issue in the southern states. Ontario and Manitoba are more racist for me. I hate talking about the topic with Canadians because there is a degree of denial and self-aggrandizement.
Location: Cloquet, Minnesota, United States of America
17 posts, read 16,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFTIMAGE
I've explored parts of the south and really liked it. It does feel like the poorest and most backwards region in Canada/USA, but that's fine. The people were nice. There were many fat people and deeply religious types, but no one foisted their unhealthy foods or beliefs on me.
Come see my hometown in Ontario. Quebec, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick are officially poorer than every state except Mississippii. Virginia is richer than any Canadian province. I am skeptical about what you say.
Come see my hometown in Ontario. Quebec, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick are officially poorer than every state except Mississippii. Virginia is richer than any Canadian province. I am skeptical about what you say.
Could be the clement weather that allowed for cheaper housing standards, but I saw some shanty-town like areas in south carolina, georgia, florida that just seemed like their closest brush with civilization had been during the antebellum area. Seemed utterly impoverished.
I've see a bit of Atlantic Canada and yes, there are definitely some very run-down, poor areas. It's probably the second poorest-looking part of Canada/US I've seen, after the south.
I can understand your skepticism, as I haven't really elaborated and these are just personal observations. I would advise you to take 'average income' with a grain of salt though if you're comparing states to provinces.
The thing is 'average' income includes the highest and lowest earners in each state. Median income is a more accurate figure if you want to get a sense of 'typical' wealth, as it isn't skewered by extreme outliers, particularly the ultra-rich.
And sure enough, the median household income in the poorest canadian province is close to double that of it's US counterpart. (59,000$ New Brunswick vs 36,000$ Mississipi)
Quebec is often ridiculed as the 'poor one' among the big provinces, yet it's median household income is 71,000$ after taxes. That's 2,000$ more than the highest median household income I could find in the states (Maryland at 69,000$ according to wiki)
Now I wouldn't say US big cities seem poor. On the contrary, they seem to be major centers of wealth for the most part - more dazzling than Canadian cities on average.
But impoverished rural areas in the southern US are, in my experience, the poorest of the poor. And tbh, seeing it first-hand was an eye-opening experience for me. It helped me better understand the south's extreme religiosity and conservativeness. I feel many parts of the US south were simply forgotten by civilization and left to their own devices.
For what it's worth I was born and raised in Montreal Quebec but have visited the eastern states very extensively.
Last edited by LEFTIMAGE; 04-16-2015 at 03:28 PM..
Location: Cloquet, Minnesota, United States of America
17 posts, read 16,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFTIMAGE
The thing is 'average' income includes the highest and lowest earners in each state. Median income is a more accurate figure if you want to get a sense of 'typical' wealth, as it isn't skewered by extreme outliers, particularly the ultra-rich.
And sure enough, the median household income in the poorest canadian province is close to double that of it's US counterpart. (59,000$ New Brunswick vs 36,000$ Mississipi)
Quebec is often ridiculed as the 'poor one' among the big provinces, yet it's median household income is 71,000$ after taxes. That's 2,000$ more than the highest median household income I could find in the states (Maryland at 69,000$ according to wiki)
Then we should be looking at median income per capita. The cost of living in New Brunswick is probably triple that of Mississippi. The cost of living in Quebec is much higher than in Maryland too. It is the same way that a salary of $100,000 in Vancouver is not comparable to $100,000 in Thunder Bay. I think you can visit Quebec and see that it is in fact "poor one".
Then we should be looking at median income per capita. The cost of living in New Brunswick is probably triple that of Mississippi. The cost of living in Quebec is much higher than in Maryland too. It is the same way that a salary of $100,000 in Vancouver is not comparable to $100,000 in Thunder Bay. I think you can visit Quebec and see that it is in fact "poor one".
Median income is a far better measure of how the common man is doing than per capita.. Obviously very wealthy people are going to skew per capita incomes up.. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that income inequality is less pronounced in Canada than the U.S. Yet the wealthiest Americans are wealthier than the wealthiest Canadians. As for C.O.L - General C.O.L is less in the U.S but it isn't the case across the board.. Both are huge countries so comparing C.O.L across nations or even States is probably not a good idea.. Generally though, I would say C.O.L is less in the U.S but there are so many criteria to compare - especially if one is guaging C.O.L over the course of a person/families lifetime (taking into accout H.C/Educational costs etc) and not just relegating it to how much a Quarter pounder, bottle of rum or pair of Levi's costs in one place vs the other.
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