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The GDP of The Greater Toronto region represents 1/5 the GDP of Canada.. Its GDP is 5 times the size of Calgary for example.. It also is home to almost 40 percent of the nation's immigrants in any given year.. No wonder the GDP on a per cap basis will take a hit.. Make no mistake though, the Greater Toronto region has the majority of the nations millionaires/multimillionaires and is easily the most economically powerful city economy/region in the country. Its not even close for second place.
Ontario is a huge province by Canadian standards in terms of population by also make no mistake that even the 'has not' provinces of Ontario and Quebec represent more than half of the nations GDP and if Ontario and Quebec were one nation it would be a trillion dollar economy.. The rest of Canada would clock in at about 800 million so probably a good idea not to write off the largest Provinces and economies in the country..
Yes that is my point, Ontario has a large workforce, many industries, and is the center of the Canadian economy. So why don't the people make more money? Ontario actually is supported by the western provinces. There has to be some good reason for this.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
One way or another - whether you're a Canadian or American you will pay for something called healthcare.. You will pay for things like education.. So yes, Canadians get dinged more on the paycheque from the government but at the end of the day - an American is going to pay for his healthcare and his education every bit as much if not more dollar for dollar than a Canadian..
Well, unless they are the majority of people who don't get a university degree. I also don't think taxes are as high as you make it seem in Canada either. I am sure it is nothing compared to Sweden, Denmark, France. I can say with some certainty that the average Canadian is richer than the average Swede after taxation.
One way or another - whether you're a Canadian or American you will pay for something called healthcare.. You will pay for things like education.. So yes, Canadians get dinged more on the paycheque from the government but at the end of the day - an American is going to pay for his healthcare and his education every bit as much if not more dollar for dollar than a Canadian..
Most Canadians only see the short-term picture and see America as having cheaper living/etc. So many of them fail to see the reason why... which is because we Americans stack up huge medical bills and college costs easily 10k+ a year here. Don't know how much it is in Canada, though. Still, I don't see what's so hard to grasp about it.
I'm eager to ever hear about a place with high incomes, low cost of living, and low taxes and at the same time getting universal healthcare, cheap education etc. Oh yeah that's right.... It DOESNT EXIST.
Most Canadians only see the short-term picture and see America as having cheaper living/etc. So many of them fail to see the reason why... which is because we Americans stack up huge medical bills and college costs easily 10k+ a year here. Don't know how much it is in Canada, though. Still, I don't see what's so hard to grasp about it.
I'm eager to ever hear about a place with high incomes, low cost of living, and low taxes and at the same time getting universal healthcare, cheap education etc. Oh yeah that's right.... It DOESNT EXIST.
Education is definately cheaper in Canada.. The cost has been rising but still - you'll pay less for your general associates degree/degree here than the U.S.. Healthcare definately cheaper in Canada - For every 1 dollar spent here its 2 bucks in the U.S..
Yes that is my point, Ontario has a large workforce, many industries, and is the center of the Canadian economy. So why don't the people make more money? Ontario actually is supported by the western provinces. There has to be some good reason for this.
Well, unless they are the majority of people who don't get a university degree. I also don't think taxes are as high as you make it seem in Canada either. I am sure it is nothing compared to Sweden, Denmark, France. I can say with some certainty that the average Canadian is richer than the average Swede after taxation.
Well Ontario takes in a disproportionate amount of the nations immigrants.. I don't have stats but its a fair conclusion that immigrants will not make as much as established Canadians.. Of course, Ontario and Quebec have taken a hit in the last few decades in terms of the decline of manufacturing which have always been a strong part of their economies.
When you say 'supported' by western Provinces in what way do you mean exactly.. Largely a pittance in terms of transfer payments lol... Every Canadian province at some point or another and in one way or another has been 'supported' by others. Quite frankly, if Alberta wasn't sitting on the worlds 3rd largest proven oil reserves - its GDP would take a nosedive.. Hey, they do and not knocking that but I seriously think you need to put into perspective what it is by 'support' - We are speaking very small amount of dollars for overall GDP as a means of Transfer payments to Ontario.. Its almost neglible.. Regardless this isn't a west vs us thing - Canadians support one another and we have been doing this now for over 150 years and will do so for another 150 years - from time to time some Provinces will do better than others but we should avoid the tendency to do the nah nah nah nah nah thing went times are good for certain one's over the others because that is transitory - the nation is timeless.
All this talk about gdp is just all about money. I don't think quality of life or livability takes money into account, neither does happiness.
Just ask yourself, would you rather make 40k in Toronto or 90k in Detroit? It's a no brainer for me tbh.
All this talk about gdp is just all about money. I don't think quality of life or livability takes money into account, neither does happiness.
Just ask yourself, would you rather make 40k in Toronto or 90k in Detroit? It's a no brainer for me tbh.
I'll have to part ways with you here lol.. 40K is just ok - its just getting by in most any large Canamerican city... 90K on the other hand - in Detroit would afford you a very decent place in a decent area in the burbs... You can save money with this for retirement much more comfortably than 40K - plus just being able to afford to go out and buy/do things plus travel.. 40K after housing/basics are covered there really isn't a whole lot left at all.. You do need a certain amount of money to live and enjoy life and 90K per year reaches the sweet spot much better than only 40K.... Hey, I'm born and raised in T.O and its a great city to live but if not for family and if I had the choice between 90K in Detroit or 40K in T.O the choice for me would be Detroit.. Just so many more options with that extra 50K per year.
I'll have to part ways with you here lol.. 40K is just ok - its just getting by in most any large Canamerican city... 90K on the other hand - in Detroit would afford you a very decent place in a decent area in the burbs... You can save money with this for retirement much more comfortably than 40K - plus just being able to afford to go out and buy/do things plus travel.. 40K after housing/basics are covered there really isn't a whole lot left at all.. You do need a certain amount of money to live and enjoy life and 90K per year reaches the sweet spot much better than only 40K.... Hey, I'm born and raised in T.O and its a great city to live but if not for family and if I had the choice between 90K in Detroit or 40K in T.O the choice for me would be Detroit.. Just so many more options with that extra 50K per year.
If equal salaries or say 70-75K for T.O and 90K for Detroit - i'd take T.O.. Anything greater than 20K per year and we are talking some real money here lol... Hey everyone has a price... This is up to about 110K per year.. Greater than that and 10-20 extra K per year and its just getting greedy imo..
Could be the clement weather that allowed for cheaper housing standards, but I saw some shanty-town like areas in south carolina, georgia, florida that just seemed like their closest brush with civilization had been during the antebellum area. Seemed utterly impoverished.
I've see a bit of Atlantic Canada and yes, there are definitely some very run-down, poor areas. It's probably the second poorest-looking part of Canada/US I've seen, after the south.
I can understand your skepticism, as I haven't really elaborated and these are just personal observations. I would advise you to take 'average income' with a grain of salt though if you're comparing states to provinces.
The thing is 'average' income includes the highest and lowest earners in each state. Median income is a more accurate figure if you want to get a sense of 'typical' wealth, as it isn't skewered by extreme outliers, particularly the ultra-rich.
And sure enough, the median household income in the poorest canadian province is close to double that of it's US counterpart. (59,000$ New Brunswick vs 36,000$ Mississipi)
Quebec is often ridiculed as the 'poor one' among the big provinces, yet it's median household income is 71,000$ after taxes. That's 2,000$ more than the highest median household income I could find in the states (Maryland at 69,000$ according to wiki)
Now I wouldn't say US big cities seem poor. On the contrary, they seem to be major centers of wealth for the most part - more dazzling than Canadian cities on average.
But impoverished rural areas in the southern US are, in my experience, the poorest of the poor. And tbh, seeing it first-hand was an eye-opening experience for me. It helped me better understand the south's extreme religiosity and conservativeness. I feel many parts of the US south were simply forgotten by civilization and left to their own devices.
For what it's worth I was born and raised in Montreal Quebec but have visited the eastern states very extensively.
What's interesting about this "poor" vs. GDP per capita debate is that regardless of GDP per capita figures, I do find that, for example, most central northern European countries (say starting in France and going northwards) all feel or appear slightly richer to me than the U.S. and Canada do. I do believe that statistically, both Canada and the U.S. are "richer" than most of these countries (except maybe Luxembourg and Norway), but in almost all of them the streets and highways tend to be in consistently better shape, public infrastructure like parks, schools, squares, rail and bus stations, metro stations, seem to be of higher quality materials and better maintained. There are far fewer "clunker" type cars driving around, and dog-eared and shabby housing and retail businesses are much less common sights as well.
Yes, there are areas in these countries that look bad (someone will inevitably point to the crappy high-rises of the French banlieues) but you can easily travel for weeks in these countries seeing very little of that. The affected areas seem comparatively small compared to the U.S. and also Canada where any leisure traveller will inevitably see fairly large swathes of crappy-looking areas.
So sure, I suppose there is a certain percentage "plus" in wealth that comes from higher GDP per capita that is reflected somewhere and benefits some people, but overall to me at least it doesn't always result in a society appearing or feeling more prosperous overall.
Very good. For all of it's problems GDP-PPP is by far the best measurement there is. Median household income carries far more problems. How many working are in the household? One parent? Two? What about the cost of living? Is it double the area being compared to? Half? Triple the pricing? Median household income can be taken into consideration, but on it's own it is highly unreliable, a whole lot more so than GDP-PPP. Anders Borg talks about this same issue often enough of "wikipediaites" (I know, excuse my translation) who are lulled into false security by unreliable measurements invented by unreliable sources with little to no background in finance. HDI is a good example of this and inequality adjusted HDI is an even better example.
I am surprised at Ontario's bad performance. I had the impression that with Toronto being the main city in the country it would perform better. I thought Ontario would be at the top of Canada, but now it looks like they are supported by the western provinces. You learn something new every day. I assume Alberta is wealthy because of it's abundance of oil but what about Newfoundland? Their region is the poorest in the continent but Newfoundland does much better than the neighboring provinces.
You can't compare Ontario with Newfoundland, which is tiny. It has fewer people than Scarborough.
In the US, Alaska has a per capita GDP of 61K, North Dakota 56k, compared with 46K for California, which is only slightly higher than Nebraska and Louisiana. Does that mean California is as poor as Nebraska and North Dakota is a lot richer? No wonder everything is leaving California to Nebraska?
Large provinces while having the largest and richest cities, often carry more poor people and social problems as well. Their economy is a lot more diversified, which means they support a lot of low end jobs - cashiers, waiters, etc. And they usually have a lot more homeless people too. This is why you can jump to conclusion that Newfoundland does a lot better economically than Ontario based on some simple economic data.
Last edited by botticelli; 04-17-2015 at 09:47 AM..
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