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No one denies (nor I) population drops. I don't deny the middle-classed being squeezed in Chicago. Seems Latinos can move into Cragin/Belmont and afford it? Squeezed out of gentrifying areas east.
But just as all is not perfect in Chicago. The reality is Houston is far of it too.
- you get rid of True winters in Houston. But brown winters are still standard their.
- you give up full streets w/curbing. Unless you search for it and pay more. Not standard there.
- you accept the ditch system is the Houston way. Some deep, some gentle.
- much infill for you in Houston will be far less single-homes even it they look it.
- the older ranches in infill gain a lot of gated-like developments. If a single home? You will pay too.
- expect the power-lines and poles most often in front of your newer home or development and street un-curbed. You need to search for the premium areas fully curbed and ditches covered over.
- you want a basement? Fa'geta'bout'it. Or build your own home and builder to add it. Expect to pay much more then it on a slab. 90+% of Houston.
You keep pushing population loss means:
- area in total decline
- Chicago and Chicagoland are in ALL NEGATIVES the poster-city and metro of Declining America? Much more involved and NO, THIS METRO FAR FROM THIS FITS THIS DECLARATION
- there is no one Chicago. But in housing and built environment? You know exactly why you will find in Chicago in particular.
A Chicago where the poor no longer see staying put is their best option? Is a good thing. It is better for the Nation to move to the jobs. They will not move to you. Past few decades prove that.
My point was for the city to MOVE FORWARD :
- embracing changing demographics is the reality in the degree it is seeing. Was a loooong time coming.
- the poorer seeing low-hope expectations and to jut stay put. Is neither good for them nor the city.
- a squeezed middle-class is a national fact. Few cities are booming in middle-class growths. Metros much more yes. With them by far in the sunbelt.
Chicago is blessed with a level of a diversified economy that not ll major cities can claim as dependent on NO ONE INDUSTRY. It's a Legacy city that is matured in full.
But at a stage where some downsizing is part of the scene that has actual pro's with it's transition to a more European concept mature city of Weather in the city and bulk of the middle-class and even poorer in the suburbs.
Chicago's bones have not merely aged to become brittle. They are very much as strong as when younger. It had its era of huge growth that guidelines and plans had a uniform city built that a Houston CAN and SHOULD Envy.
Houston's past mistakes and ongoing ones. Will not see it evolve to the class-act Chicago evolved in. If not for the economic reality of:
- radical racial change on past eras
- de-industrialization of the US and North in particular
- the poor and a under-class that grew, became generational, and remained stagnant and STAYED PUT.
This movement now is why the declines in population are now showing despite in-migrations. Also birth ratios lower but deaths by a more aged population extremes having losses in retirements to warmer-sunny locations and the ultimate ends we all will succumb to one day.
I'm pushing population loss? It's a matter of fact and is being noted in the media. It's not Chicago city proper anymore, while the suburbs grew. It's the metro area and Illinois in general
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,130 posts, read 7,581,348 times
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Originally Posted by personone
My bad....I just realized those were pics of Houston and you were talking about Houston and not Chicago LOL. My apologies on the responses. I was at work the other day, so I was looking at this on my Iphone, so didn't see that these were Houston pics LOL
But interestingly, you can find some similar looking stretches like these in the far west and south sides of Chicago, and you also find a lot of east coast looking areas in Chicago too. Chicago has an interesting variety of architecture/look.
Right, my post was about Houston's urbanity, not Chicago's. Which is why I said some people have a gripe about calling Houston city the 4th largest, with housing stock like what was posted by the post that I replied to. There are tiny Eastern exurbs that have equal housing stock or urbanity.
Chicago I consider a top 3 urban city inside much of the loop at least in the country.
I'm pushing population loss? It's a matter of fact and is being noted in the media. It's not Chicago city proper anymore, while the suburbs grew. It's the metro area and Illinois in general
Aren't we past this YES CHICAGOLAND has lost population stage yet? We merely say. The poorer disadvantaged time has come along with some squeezed Middle-class to chose going where the jobs are, cheaper housing to lower taxation to be found.
But ironically, this can aid Chicago in its continued changes in demographics shifting. We all can get this. The city is far too diversified in not owing all to one main industry and latches on to new avenues it can be taken in. In the ever-changing dynamics of the city that IS NOT in as DEATH-SPIRAL DOWNWARD of doom and gloom.
Heck, Poorer NYC displaced and Philly's. Move to my region of the state. Oh it's still more seen as depressed then not. But old-stock housing is cheap and schools are good. Property taxes for old-stock housing is in the hundreds per year because so many have assessed values very low.
PA is loosing residents anyway despite some areas very cheap. Philly is not dropping in population because if has been gaining many of NYC's priced out folk. Educated to not-so much. So its poorer losses are stable yet.
* But anyway, you seemed to create this thread with a agenda you keep promoting. That seems:
You're not leaving Chicago or Illinois yourself - though you have no solutions, refuse to acknowledge the city is also transitioning and a part of it is in a downsizing stage. The state is broke, my state is broke, NJ is listed #1 worst fiscally.
Population growth is not going to be the saving grace to our regions. Ironically? Houston might be even more stymied in a era of lower gas and oil prices - that might be here to stay. No one should say? The city is on some proverbial downhill spiral down. That simply is not true.
But I think in the long run. CHICAGOLAND will come out better. But if those who see it's greener in the next state or 1000 miles and more south. It might help those actually left too? Stabilizing increases and bettering the available job offerings with a bit less competition? Of course, one can move to Indiana and commute. Maybe Gary will rise again even?
If you want to hail Chicago and Chicagoland as some huge failure in a proverbial sewer bound pit vs. Indiana or a Houston? You are not going to get ---> any big numbers of takers on C-D. Outside of the political forums? Then the more you trash Chicago for political aim. The more some might ---->luv Luv LUV you there?
Aren't we past this YES CHICAGOLAND has lost population stage yet? We merely say. The poorer disadvantaged time has come along with some squeezed Middle-class to chose going where the jobs are, cheaper housing to lower taxation to be found.
Show me the data that it's mainly the poor who have moved and only some middle class. I think it's more middle class
Quote:
But ironically, this can aid Chicago in its continued changes in demographics shifting. We all can get this. The city is far too diversified in not owing all to one main industry and latches on to new avenues it can be taken in. In the ever-changing dynamics of the city that IS NOT in as DEATH-SPIRAL DOWNWARD of doom and gloom.
I never called it a death spiral. However, by all accounts it is a sign of an unhealthy situation that needs to be addressed by our elected officials, and they are just sitting on their asses.
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Heck, Poorer NYC displaced and Philly's. Move to my region of the state. Oh it's still more seen as depressed then not. But old-stock housing is cheap and schools are good. Property taxes for old-stock housing is in the hundreds per year because so many have assessed values very low.
NYC has priced out poor and middle class but their population is still growing. Even with all the domestic out migration, they attract so many international migrants (as well as young urban professions in the city) to compensate for the loss and have grown by nearly 600,000 since the last census. We've grown too since 2010 but are on the verge of losing all that we gained earlier this decade if our officials don't act and promote growth. ****, how can Boston grow by 5% and we can't?? Boston isn't in the Sunbelt
PA is loosing residents anyway despite some areas very cheap. Philly is not dropping in population because if has been gaining many of NYC's priced out folk. Educated to not-so much. So its poorer losses are stable yet.
* But anyway, you seemed to create this thread with a agenda you keep promoting. That seems:
You're not leaving Chicago or Illinois yourself - though you have no solutions, refuse to acknowledge the city is also transitioning and a part of it is in a downsizing stage. The state is broke, my state is broke, NJ is listed #1 worst fiscally.
And considering the economic engine that Chicago is, this state should be FAR ahead in the list and not #29
Actually my future plans is to leave Illinois, but not for at least another 10-15 years....
I created this thread because Chicago will likely slip to the #4 spot and probably number #4 spot in metro area too. If Chicago was gaining 200,000 people, I would have created a thread showing that too
Quote:
Population growth is not going to be the saving grace to our regions. Ironically? Houston might be even more stymied in a era of lower gas and oil prices - that might be here to stay. No one should say? The city is on some proverbial downhill spiral down. That simply is not true.
But I think in the long run. CHICAGOLAND will come out better. But if those who see it's greener in the next state or 1000 miles and more south. It might help those actually left too? Stabilizing increases and bettering the available job offerings with a bit less competition? Of course, one can move to Indiana and commute. Maybe Gary will rise again even?
I am concerned as is the urban planner who said this in the Tribune article that I linked
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Sure, we would rather be an area that's growing (more rapidly)," he said. "When you grow, you have more consumers. When you grow, you have more producers. And therefore a more dynamic economy."
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If you want to hail Chicago and Chicagoland as some huge failure in a proverbial sewer bound pit vs. Indiana or a Houston? You are not going to get ---> any big numbers of takers on C-D. Outside of the political forums? Then the more you trash Chicago for political aim. The more some might ---->luv Luv LUV you there?
Jut saying.
I honestly don't give two ****s what any on C-D says. I lived in the city for 36 of my 44 years. I love Chicago. I have the flag and the skyline tattooed on my back.... But I see what's going on here. No blinders on. No I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. Yes there is a lot of positive development in and around downtown and on the Northside (I lived in Albany Park). But 75% of the rest of Chicago isn't seeing that positive side. And what is happening outside the city limits in the suburb and the state in general is even more concerning for me. For three consecutive years, Illinois has lost more residents than any other state... The Chicago area no longer is suffering from low population growth. Now it has negative growth. As much as you try to put a positive spin on it, you can't.
Also, I never said Houston is more urban, more pedestrian friendly, better mass transit, than Chicago, which is what people salivate over on this forum. We all know this. But in the end that doesn't seem to stop them from growing both in population and income
Show me the data that it's mainly the poor who have moved and only some middle class. I think it's more middle class
I never called it a death spiral. However, by all accounts it is a sign of an unhealthy situation that needs to be addressed by our elected officials, and they are just sitting on their asses.
NYC has priced out poor and middle class but their population is still growing. Even with all the domestic out migration, they attract so many international migrants (as well as young urban professions in the city) to compensate for the loss and have grown by nearly 600,000 since the last census. We've grown too since 2010 but are on the verge of losing all that we gained earlier this decade if our officials don't act and promote growth. ****, how can Boston grow by 5% and we can't?? Boston isn't in the Sunbelt
And considering the economic engine that Chicago is, this state should be FAR ahead in the list and not #29
Actually my future plans is to leave Illinois, but not for at least another 10-15 years....
I created this thread because Chicago will likely slip to the #4 spot and probably number #4 spot in metro area too. If Chicago was gaining 200,000 people, I would have created a thread showing that too
I am concerned as is the urban planner who said this in the Tribune article that I linked
I honestly don't give two ****s what any on C-D says. I lived in the city for 36 of my 44 years. I love Chicago. I have the flag and the skyline tattooed on my back.... But I see what's going on here. No blinders on. No I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. Yes there is a lot of positive development in and around downtown and on the Northside (I lived in Albany Park). But 75% of the rest of Chicago isn't seeing that positive side. And what is happening outside the city limits in the suburb and the state in general is even more concerning for me. For three consecutive years, Illinois has lost more residents than any other state... The Chicago area no longer is suffering from low population growth. Now it has negative growth. As much as you try to put a positive spin on it, you can't.
Also, I never said Houston is more urban, more pedestrian friendly, better mass transit, than Chicago, which is what people salivate over on this forum. We all know this. But in the end that doesn't seem to stop them from growing both in population and income
You need to look at the ACS data. It has been posted here numerous times. The hollowing out of the middle class is a national trend. There are more people at the top and more people at the bottom. This is exactly what is happening in Chicago/Illinois.
Houston's growth has slowed as a result of oil prices taking a hit. It'll also take a hit with as immigration continues to slide and people have fewer children. The number of building permits issued in Houston has also fallen off. I think even St. Louis had more building permits issued than Houston. Construction spending in Houston has fallen off. Houston's housing costs are rising to be nearly identical to that of Chicago. As we've discussed at length, people are chasing jobs that are going to vanish in the short term.
Obviously things aren't going great in Illinois, but they're not exactly awful either. We've surpassed previous job peaks, incomes are up, educational attainment is up, etc. What kills Chicago's growth is that we are literally hemorrhaging blacks and working class families and immigration to the region has slowed.
10-15 years from now Illinois and Chicago will be a totally different place, lol. Illinois could be growing at 10%+ per decade like it was between 1990 and 2000. Nothing remains on an upward trajectory indefinitely. There will be ups and downs. We all know this. We should obviously talk about the issues, but some of the people around here (like many in life) can only focus on the negative.
[quote=chicagogeorge;47720212]show me the data that it's mainly the poor who have moved and only some middle class. I think it's more middle class
10 years ago, 60 percent of the chicago area’s poverty was in the city. Now, it’s less than half. But in the suburbs and nearby cities, the population is shrinking and poverty is on the rise.
Between 2000 and 2007/11, cook county’s poverty rate moved from 13.5 percent to 15.8 percent; at the beginning of the decade, its poverty rate was highest in the region,
but by 2007/11 it had been surpassed by dekalb county and lake county, indiana, where the rates jumped from 11.4 to 15.9 percent and 12.2 to 16.6 percent, respectively.
Chicago city’s share of its cbsa’s population below poverty declined from a stunning 60 percent of the total to 48 percent of the total between 2000 and 2007/11.
Cook County, compared to many of its peers, has an abnormally tight birth/death ratio. If it didn’t, the numbers would not be as dire. Cook County is compared to several very large counties in and around major population centers,
- including Kings County (i.e. Brooklyn), New York (i.e. Manhattan) and Fairfax (the big, rather wealthy county that includes many of Washington, D.C.’s suburbs).
All of these counties had more people move out than move in from other places in the U.S.
When the Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning ran the numbers in 2011, it found that virtually all of the increase in the senior population—95 percent—in northeastern Illinois came from minorities:
- 40% from Hispanics, 29% from Asians, 26% from blacks.
data back in 2011, found that:
- the number of immigrants arriving in metro Chicago every year dropped by half from the 1990s to 2000-2007.
- the estimated number of undocumented immigrants fell by 70,000 from 2006-2010.
- the Hispanic population dispersed outwards into the Cook County suburbs and the collar counties.
Behind the numbers, there are lots of moving pieces. Some are the result of collective failures, such as:
- the conditions that are driving black residents out of the city.
- some are the results of policies that are attracting wealthy families to the city
- and some reducing the flow of undocumented immigrants.
"But data also suggest that African-Americans are now leaving the region at a significantly faster rate than whites, Paral added. That suggests that rising crime rates and the loss of jobs on Chicago's South and West Sides are continuing to encourage residents to look elsewhere for a better life.
I never called it a death spiral. However, by all accounts it is a sign of an unhealthy situation that needs to be addressed by our elected officials, and they are just sitting on their asses.
Nyc has priced out poor and middle class but their population is still growing. Even with all the domestic out migration, they attract so many international migrants (as well as young urban professions in the city) to compensate for the loss and have grown by nearly 600,000 since the last census. We've grown too since 2010 but are on the verge of losing all that we gained earlier this decade if our officials don't act and promote growth. ****, how can boston grow by 5% and we can't?? Boston isn't in the sunbelt
Illinois collects more than $3,000 per capita in state and local taxes each year, one of the highest per capita tax revenues. Yet, the state's fiscal management system does not appear to be operating optimally, which is the main reason it ranks as the second worst-run state.
These states are a bigger fiscal mess than Illinois
[quote]
But as bad as things are in the Land of Lincoln, three other states are in worse fiscal shape, according to an analysis released Thursday by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University.
Connecticut, Massachusetts and New Jersey are coping with even bigger problems thanks to large accumulated debts, underfunded pensions and looming deficits, among other measures of fiscal health, the researchers found in an analysis of the latest state financial statements available.
and considering the economic engine that chicago is, this state should be far ahead in the list and not #29
My state has two Large metros as economic engines. Does not help me much in Central PA. Illinois has one Big one. But those in southern Illinois... it may as well be in Canada. Many would applaud it actually my future plans is to leave illinois, but not for at least another 10-15 years....
[quote] You mean by your retirement or maybe once a Empty-Nesters?
I created this thread because chicago will likely slip to the #4 spot and probably number #4 spot in metro area too. If chicago was gaining 200,000 people, i would have created a thread showing that too
[quote] Houston gonna surpass Chicago is OLD NEWS. It was seen coming a couple decades ago. Especially a few years ago. Threads on C-D go back a few years.
I tried to create a new thread on Houston vs Chicago on 2030. It was merged and my post re-opened a old thread that had Houston surpassing Chicago in 2020. It's gotton some replies. I wanted feedback on how their cores would look and Houston gaining infill would change it. BUT YOU SEE WHAT WAS A BY 2020 IS MORE A BY 2030.
You do realize Toronto surpassed Chicago in 2013. Were threads on that.
Talk on Baltimore/DC gonna take over CHICAGOLAND.
Dallas/Ft Worth metro gonna take CHICAGOLAND
i am concerned as is the urban planner who said this in the tribune article that i li
i honestly don't give two ****s what any on c-d says. I lived in the city for 36 of my 44 years. I love chicago. I have the flag and the skyline tattooed on my back.... But i see what's going on here. No blinders on. No i'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. Yes there is a lot of positive development in and around downtown and on the northside (i lived in albany park). But 75% of the rest of chicago isn't seeing that positive side. And what is happening outside the city limits in the suburb and the state in general is even more concerning for me. For three consecutive years, illinois has lost more residents than any other state... The chicago area no longer is suffering from low population growth. Now it has negative growth. As much as you try to put a positive spin on it, you can't.
Quote:
I just say MAKE YOUR MOVE TO HOUSTON SOONER WHILE YOUNGER. If you are squeezed in Chicago as you feel? Find a way to move to the GREENER MILDER WINTER PASTURES THAT IS HOUSTON
Also, i never said houston is more urban, more pedestrian friendly, better mass transit, than chicago, which is what people salivate over on this forum. We all know this. But in the end that doesn't seem to stop them from growing both in population and income
To say Oil did not affect Houston is untrue. Plenty of links to pick and choose to highlight it. But Houston IS a lot mere diversified today then a decade ago. So the PAIN IS LESS. But it did affect investment downtown Big Time and Investments Big Oil had planned and would have done otherwise.
Recent revisions to Houston’s total payroll employment figures are not large, and they do not change the fundamental narrative of no-growth/slow-growth in Houston since 2014.
The revisions to total employment wiped out all job gains in 2015, as well as for the first eight months of 2016. The revised figures are mostly small changes to previously estimated small employment numbers, but they remain compelling because of concern about low oil prices and the on-going damage to oil-related activities.
Revised detail on the local oil industry confirms deep and widespread damage, with 77,200 oil-related jobs lost since December 2014. The Houston economy’s resilience to these steep losses — with no downturn in total employment — is quite remarkable.
What was previously an out-sized gain of 12,100 jobs in 2015 is now only 5,600, and a large employment loss of 11,400 last year is now only 2,100. The good news here is the relatively small construction losses now recorded in 2016, perhaps indicating that Ship Channel petrochemical construction was still holding off any on-going declines in commercial construction.
MY ATTEMPT HERE to use my reply in blue seems to have FAILED. I'm done replying to something NOT MY CHOICES. IT'S YOURS.
I suggest a move out sooner. Houston is calling you. Why you chose to prove Chicago's decline is a done deal. (It's old news too) for this thread. I took the bait for no real reason but defend Chicago. NOT PROVE ANYTHING OR GIVE YOU OR ANYONE ADVICE.
But I say ---> make your move sooner rather then later. Waiting and expecting politicians to fix your issues is a For'geta' bout' it.
I'm done posting, posting this mess as is, and done here. GOOD LUCK. I have enough issues in my state too. I'm in a much cheaper to afford area of my state too. Don't make it better.
My wife and I were just in Chicago this weekend from D.C. I will say what I always say. We are moving there this year for several reasons. It's cheaper than most major cities, when compared to D.C., NY, Boston, San Fran and LA. We are both 28 years old, black, educated and love the urban lifestyle. We don't have any issues integrating with other races and being the minorities in the neighborhood. If you have an education and/or skill set in the right field, you will thrive there. As long as Chicago can attract educated millennials who know their $80,000 salary will go further than the cities listed above, it will bounce back.
People keep harping about taxes, which is silly because the majority of major cities have higher taxes. I will never expect for Chicago taxes to be as cheap as Nashville or Louisville nor should they.
Any major city with major services = MAJOR TAXES.
Corruption is everywhere. Right now in D.C. our mass transit system, METRO has mismanaged it's money. Who would have thought the capital transit system which transports many of our politicians and government officials daily would be out of money?
If President Trump goes through with his plan to reduce a lot of the government spending, it will be interesting to see what happens to the job, economy and housing market here in D.C. A lot of the people here are already worried.
People are chasing jobs in the sunbelt region that will one day be either 1) permanently in foreign nations or 2) obsolete due to automation. I read an article the other day that mentioned blacks are leaving Chicago for Atlanta for better opportunities, cheaper housing and safer communities. Well if the economy in Atlanta ever swings south, they will start shooting each other there just like they are doing in Englewood, Austin and East Garfield Park. Unlike our Appalachian counterparts, black people do not live through poverty without killing each other. It will be interesting to see how well the sunbelt region will hold up 10-15 years from now when automation is fully in effect.
Those cities will just then began experiencing what Chicago has already gone through. BET!
My wife and I were just in Chicago this weekend from D.C. I will say what I always say. We are moving there this year for several reasons. It's cheaper than most major cities, when compared to D.C., NY, Boston, San Fran and LA. We are both 28 years old, black, educated and love the urban lifestyle. We don't have any issues integrating with other races and being the minorities in the neighborhood. If you have an education and/or skill set in the right field, you will thrive there. As long as Chicago can attract educated millennials who know their $80,000 salary will go further than the cities listed above, it will bounce back.
People keep harping about taxes, which is silly because the majority of major cities have higher taxes. I will never expect for Chicago taxes to be as cheap as Nashville or Louisville nor should they.
Any major city with major services = MAJOR TAXES.
Corruption is everywhere. Right now in D.C. our mass transit system, METRO has mismanaged it's money. Who would have thought the capital transit system which transports many of our politicians and government officials daily would be out of money?
If President Trump goes through with his plan to reduce a lot of the government spending, it will be interesting to see what happens to the job, economy and housing market here in D.C. A lot of the people here are already worried.
People are chasing jobs in the sunbelt region that will one day be either 1) permanently in foreign nations or 2) obsolete due to automation. I read an article the other day that mentioned blacks are leaving Chicago for Atlanta for better opportunities, cheaper housing and safer communities. Well if the economy in Atlanta ever swings south, they will start shooting each other there just like they are doing in Englewood, Austin and East Garfield Park. Unlike our Appalachian counterparts, black people do not live through poverty without killing each other. It will be interesting to see how well the sunbelt region will hold up 10-15 years from now when automation is fully in effect.
Those cities will just then began experiencing what Chicago has already gone through. BET!
my wife and i were just in chicago this weekend from d.c. I will say what i always say. We are moving there this year for several reasons. It's cheaper than most major cities, when compared to d.c., ny, boston, san fran and la. We are both 28 years old, black, educated and love the urban lifestyle. We don't have any issues integrating with other races and being the minorities in the neighborhood. If you have an education and/or skill set in the right field, you will thrive there. As long as chicago can attract educated millennials who know their $80,000 salary will go further than the cities listed above, it will bounce back.
People keep harping about taxes, which is silly because the majority of major cities have higher taxes. I will never expect for chicago taxes to be as cheap as nashville or louisville nor should they.
Any major city with major services = major taxes.
Corruption is everywhere. Right now in d.c. Our mass transit system, metro has mismanaged it's money. Who would have thought the capital transit system which transports many of our politicians and government officials daily would be out of money?
if president trump goes through with his plan to reduce a lot of the government spending, it will be interesting to see what happens to the job, economy and housing market here in d.c. A lot of the people here are already worried.
People are chasing jobs in the sunbelt region that will one day be either 1) permanently in foreign nations or 2) obsolete due to automation. I read an article the other day that mentioned blacks are leaving chicago for atlanta for better opportunities, cheaper housing and safer communities. Well if the economy in atlanta ever swings south, they will start shooting each other there just like they are doing in englewood, austin and east garfield park. Unlike our appalachian counterparts, black people do not live through poverty without killing each other. It will be interesting to see how well the sunbelt region will hold up 10-15 years from now when automation is fully in effect.
Those cities will just then began experiencing what chicago has already gone through. Bet!
+1000.
On a side note, I think ATL's crime rate is just as bad, if not worse, than Chicago's.
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