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Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
So you don't think Jesus died for them too? You think he only died for the little sins? Like music downloading?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,093,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Who are you addressing here? If you are addressing this to me, you go back over my almost 4000 posts and find where I even once said that believers in heaven will be watching what goes on in the lake of fire.
Reality is what it is. All of your emotional reactions and denial do nothing to change it. The Bible which is the written word of God says that unbelievers will suffer in torment forever Revelation 20:10 for example. If you can't deal with reality then retreat into your personal fantasy world and enjoy it while you can.
And by the way, I am completely comfortable with the reality of the lake of fire. Those who end up there have only themselves to blame. When the truth is presented to someone and they choose to ignore it, I will have done all that I can do to warn them. My conscience is clear.
If you claim to be a Biblical literalist you should believe the torment will occur in front of the redeemed:
Isaiah 66:24:
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Revelation 14:9-12:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Not to mention this was something many Jews, theologians in the past 2,000 years.etc believed.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,093,509 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
Yet you believe it's just that millions of people who have been brutally killed by evil people will also share the same fate as their murderers? And don't bring up the so-called 'degrees.' How can writhing in a literal lake of fire and brimstone be tolerable for ANYBODY?
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
Mike i am absolutely full of compassion for the victim , but God being in the business of setting the prisoner free , (scriptual from cover to cover)has not given up on the guilty and the fruit of prison ministries is the evidence of this , you need to hand your head in shame for your attitude , maybe Saul of Tarsus would have been executed and removed from the earth too , if he had been brought to justice by the justice system you subscribe to.
So you don't think Jesus died for them too? You think he only died for the little sins? Like music downloading?
Of course Jesus died for them. However, God has instituted that Governments be a terror and avenger to those that do evil.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The purpose of a Government (as opposed to vigilantes) using capital punishment is not really about executing judgment here on earth. But rather, it's about Government transferring that judgment from man to God. Capital offenses are beyond man's ability to judge righteously. So, God has instructed the Government, under those circumstances, to send the offender to a higher court, His court, where God who sees the heart will judge the matter.
I suppose it also frees the taxpayer from having to support murderers sitting in jail. But that probably belongs in the political debate section .
Mike i am absolutely full of compassion for the victim , but God being in the business of setting the prisoner free , (scriptual from cover to cover)has not given up on the guilty and the fruit of prison ministries is the evidence of this , you need to hand your head in shame for your attitude , maybe Saul of Tarsus would have been executed and removed from the earth too , if he had been brought to justice by the justice system you subscribe to.
Murderers guilty of premediated first degree murder, those who murder in the commission of another crime, rapists, drug dealers, should all be taken out and be executed by the civil government of whatever nation they live in. Preferably, they should be publically executed by hanging or firing squad. None of this lethal injection nonsense for so called humane purposes.
Did you ever watch old westerns like Gunsmoke and Bonanza? Someone would murder a person, get caught, go to trial and be found guilty, and taken out and hung the next day. Swift execution of justice. That's the way it should be. Maybe not the next day, but give them one appeal trial that must be done in a few days, and if he is still found guilty, then execute him.
Capitol punishment by civil government is authorized by God.
Romans 9:6 ''Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
God uses civil government as the instrumentality for imposing the death penalty on criminals.
Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorites. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2] Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
Jesus implied the propriety of capitol punishment in the parable of money usage, Luke 19:11-27.
Luke 19:27 ''But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.''
Now people will object and say, but what about the command, ''Thou shall not kill?'' The command is you will not MURDER. It is a prohibition against the crime of murder.
Then some will say, 'But Jesus said to turn the other cheek.'' Jesus was talking about not taking personal revenge. He was NOT referring to the God given authority to utilize capitol punishment on those who commit certain crimes.
And others will say, well what about the death penalty in the Old Testament for things such as adultery, or working on the Sabbath, or for committing homosexuality, or one of the other reasons for executing someone? Well what about it? That was under the God given Mosiac law and applied to Israel.
Or, 'What about David?' He had Bathesha's husband killed. He gave a command to Bathsheba's husband to go into a battle. He gave a command to those who went with him to withdraw from him and let him be killed by the enemy. (2 Samuel 11) He paid heavily for that. But God had a purpose for David.
Or what about Saul of Tarsus? It's ridiculous to compare Saul of Tarsus to a criminal who for example robs someone and then murders them to prevent them from identifying him. Yes, Saul of Tarsus under the authority of the chief priests had many Christians killed. But Saul of Tarsus was a chosen instrument of the Lord. To try and use him to oppose capitol punishment is invalid.
The death penalty is Biblical. It is authorized by God, and it is just and right. Those who oppose the death penalty are wrong.
Murderers guilty of premediated first degree murder, those who murder in the commission of another crime, rapists, drug dealers, should all be taken out and be executed by the civil government of whatever nation they live in. Preferably, they should be publically executed by hanging or firing squad. None of this lethal injection nonsense for so called humane purposes.
Did you ever watch old westerns like Gunsmoke and Bonanza? Someone would murder a person, get caught, go to trial and be found guilty, and taken out and hung the next day. Swift execution of justice. That's the way it should be. Maybe not the next day, but give them one appeal trial that must be done in a few days, and if he is still found guilty, then execute him.
Capitol punishment by civil government is authorized by God.
Romans 9:6 ''Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
God uses civil government as the instrumentality for imposing the death penalty on criminals.
Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorites. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2] Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
Jesus implied the propriety of capitol punishment in the parable of money usage, Luke 19:11-27.
Luke 19:27 ''But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.''
Now people will object and say, but what about the command, ''Thou shall not kill?'' The command is you will not MURDER. It is a prohibition against the crime of murder.
Then some will say, 'But Jesus said to turn the other cheek.'' Jesus was talking about not taking personal revenge. He was NOT referring to the God given authority to utilize capitol punishment on those who commit certain crimes.
And others will say, well what about the death penalty in the Old Testament for things such as adultery, or working on the Sabbath, or for committing homosexuality, or one of the other reasons for executing someone? Well what about it? That was under the God given Mosiac law and applied to Israel.
Or, 'What about David?' He had Bathesha's husband killed. He gave a command to Bathsheba's husband to go into a battle. He gave a command to those who went with him to withdraw from him and let him be killed by the enemy. (2 Samuel 11) He paid heavily for that. But God had a purpose for David.
Or what about Saul of Tarsus? It's ridiculous to compare Saul of Tarsus to a criminal who for example robs someone and then murders them to prevent them from identifying him. Yes, Saul of Tarsus under the authority of the chief priests had many Christians killed. But Saul of Tarsus was a chosen instrument of the Lord. To try and use him to oppose capitol punishment is invalid.
The death penalty is Biblical. It is authorized by God, and it is just and right. Those who oppose the death penalty are wrong.
Those who believe in their truth, whose conscientious imprint is retained by the adversity within men, leave the earth
behind them strewn with the corpses of the innocent as well, as the guilty; nothing but self-preservation, "Crucify him."
"For My ways are not your ways; neither, are my thoughts your thoughts."
The Bible is the word of God and what it says about the lake of fire is from God Himself.
What if the Bible was written or inspired by some other powerful being, and is not from God?
Quote:
Not from the imagination of men. The justification for eternal punishment in the lake of fire is God's perfect righteousness. I did not equate Gods justice with 'Satan discrediting.' Man owes God perfect righteousness. He can't meet the requirement. So one of the Persons of the Godhead became a man, went to the cross and paid the penalty for our sins.
Have you any idea what is perfect righteousness? If perfect justice means 'more punishment' then sharia law is more just than European or American law. It's hard to imagine the perfect being, but I think he would threat everyone fairly. Even we think that punishment should fit the crime. Also, there is no law on this Earth that allows you to go to jail instead of someone else. Why would it be just (or even possible) for one perfect being to pay for sins of imperfect beings?
Your God sounds like doubly unjust being: he treats everyone who accepted Jesus sacrifice a lot better than they deserved, and everyone else a lot worse, instead of simply holding everyone accountable for what they did.
Now, you might say that offense is infinite because it's an offense against infinite being. However since no one can harm infinite being either, then harm is zero, too.
But still, I agree with you about capital punishment. Yes, some people are that bad. Eternal punishment is something completely different, however.
Quote:
When a person receives Christ as Savior, God the Father imputes His perfect righteousness to that person and declares him justified.
Imputed or not, Christians sin like anyone else. There is no evidence that what you are talking about is actually happening in real life. Communism worked in theory, too.
The real problem with all your theories is that they are not connected to reality at all.
Last edited by python87; 10-22-2010 at 08:43 AM..
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