The idea of 'justice' according to some Christians... (Lutheran, reincarnate, woman)
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To the contrary. After chapter 3 the church is in heaven as a result of the rapture and than the judgments of the tribulation begin. And that's all future.
The heavens have already started shaking, and the "stars" have already started falling. This has been in progress for a long time, now.
(forgive me if the rest of this post is rambling. I'm working some things out here, debating with you)
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Originally Posted by Mike555
No the birds are not angels. Angels, fallen or othewise do not eat dead bodies. The birds are vultures who are eating the corpses of all those who are killed by Christ when He returns. You had better realize that when Christ returns, He is not coming back as a Lamb. He is coming back as the lion of Judah. And He will kill millions whose bodies will be left on the ground for the vultures to feast on.
They are "angels," and they do eat "dead bodies." They are just not your typical angels with fluffy feathers and wings.
See below.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Here are other passages concerning birds of the air devouring the bodies of the slain. Some of these of fulfilled in the past, and others concern the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. Jeremiah 7:32 'Therefore, behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ''when it will no more be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. 33] ''And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky, and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. Deuteronomy 28:26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. Psalm 79:2 They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth.
Yes, Mike, there are regular ol' birds in the Bible which eat bodies after people died, but there is something much bigger going on here.Here are some examples of what I mean by birds being fallen angels or wandering people (and, we should read Revelation through this lens):
For it shall be, [that], as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, [so] the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,which connects to this verse:Matthew 24:28 Wherever there is a carcass ("dead" people), there the vultures will gather.
Revelation 18:2. With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great (this planet)! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
Ezekiel 39:4-20 takes place during the Millennial kingdom. The fallen angels will be imprisoned along with Satan during the Millennium. And don't say show me a verse where it says that the fallen angels will be locked away. It is common sense that if Satan is going to be locked away during the Millennium, so will the other fallen angels.
The adversary is within many people on this planet. Get thee behind me Peter (satan). We are imprisoned. Some are freed, many are not. The fallen will be freed after God's wisdom is manifested to them through his dealings with humanity. He is using them right now to serve a purpose. That is, to bring out the evil within man, to purge the wickedness from people so there will be no more rebellious spirit among God's creatures.
I Kings 22:22. By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
Jeremiah 4:10. Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.”
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The beast is not a political machine. The beast (the antichrist) is a man who will midway through the tribulation place a statue of himself in the temple (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15) The antichrist is a man who along with the false prophet, also a man (a political machine can't be a prophet) will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever (A political machine can't be tormented).
The beast is always a political machine (full of people), and it can be tormented in the "lake of fire." When the righteous rule, the beast will be tormented. For instance: "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
~~~>>>>>Revelation 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
(These sound like weapons, which the beast has)
Revelation 9:17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.<<<<<<~~~ The antichrist spirit is in many people and has been since the "last times" 2000 years ago (I John 2:18). We are supposed to be the temple, but we rebel and worship ourselves, our families, our country, people who think like us, and place ourselves and our thoughts (temple) as the head, instead of Christ, who is love. Again, the lake of fire has nothing to do with anything other than God and his throne of fire, which the beast and all who follow it are tormented by. Revelation 14:10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Your comment above is about the following. Related to this are Zech 14:1-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 which deals with the judgment of individual Gentiles, and Ezek 20:34-38 which deals with God's judgment of Israel. It's all about separating from among the tribulational survivors, the believers from the unbelievers. Only believers will be allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom. All surviving unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41,46.
You will have to study the rest of my post to see why I don't agree with this.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
C. I. Scofield has nothing to do with it. This is Scripture. This is the word of God. Jesus Christ is going to judge when He comes back and He is going to throw all tribulational unbelievers into the eternal fire as is planly recorded in Matthew 25:41,46.
Here is the verse; Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal (eoninan~nothing is eternal but God) fire prepared for the devil and his demons (they are on this planet in the "furnace"). And, they (Jews) were turned away into the fire in 70 A.D., and they've been there for 2000 years. They were previously in a furnace in Egypt. ( Deuteronomy 4:20. Remember their time in Egypt? God brought them out of the "furnace.") This planet is filled with "birds" who are in the fire, wandering and untethered, until they can find a host, and they are easy prey for these "birds." This planet is full of "fire" and wrath, and the Jews (and many others) are no longer protected or in communion with God. But, there will be mercy, because mercy triumphs over judgment.
(God is the eternal fire and his "breath" ignites it)
Isaiah 30:33. Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Revelation is not being played out right now. Except for the first three chapters of Revelation, which deals with the church on earth, everything else is future.
That makes for good politics, is what that does.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
And attacking Scofield shows a lack of character.
How about, critiquing Scofield makes me a noble Berean.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus in illustrating the future final judgment in the lake of fire symbolized by the burning garbage dump known as Gehenna, drew on the description in Isaiah 66:24 concerning the worms which shall not die, and the fire not being quenched. He applied this language to present an image of the very real lake of fire which would be understandable to the Jews.'
Jesus used figuative language to describe in ways that the Jews would understand the reality of the lake of fire.
Jesus was alerting the Jews, who, after 2000, years were out of control. He told them that the fall was coming, which it did in 70 A.D. You are mixing the "lake of fire" with Gehenna (translated hell, here). When Edom came to it's end, it was said in the Bible (Old Testament for those who need to know) that their smoke rose forever and ever and nothing would ever go through again. That, as any historian should know, did not happen, at least, not permanently. Because, when the Bible uses terms, such as forever and ever and worms and whatever else is thrown in there for emphasis, it is trying to help us understand the devastation better. When you take these verses literally, then we have a problem, just as we do if we take "the smoke of their torment went up forever" regarding Edom.
But, of course, you already know this, don't you?
Isaiah 34:11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
Jeremiah 50:39 "So desert creatures and hyenas will live there, and there the owl will dwell. It will never again be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
To the contrary. Both Satan and the fallen angels, and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire at the end of human history which is the end of the Millennium. That is when the lake of fire becomes the permanent residence of all who have rebelled against Christ. There is nothing eonian about it.
And you are using the typical passages that universalists use to promote that heresy. God's plan involves separating from Him for all eternity future, those who rebelled against Him.
The lake of fire has nothing to do with hell, Mike. I keep trying to tell you this. The "sea of glass" is mingled with "fire," and "fire" flows from God's throne (Daniel 7:10). Neither the sea of glass nor the fire is literal, here.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Hades and the lake of fire are Biblical and are reality. The writers of the New Testament chose to use the Greek word Hades to identify the place that in the Hebrew is called Sheol.
Well, I guess you haven't studied the links I gave you.
Hades is a mythological concept thought up by the Babylonians/Greeks and others who liked to scare their citizens into behaving. It is entirely a pagan concept. Sheol should have been translated into "grave, which it is, half of the time. The other half translates it "Hades." The translators were awfully confused, it seems. If were to be consistent, we wouldn't have mass confusion over this. It's quite ridiculous.
What we should have in the Bible is "grave" and "lake of fire." That's all. And, the lake of fire, as I have repeated time and time again, has to do with being tormented (by God's presence) in the presence of the lamb.
And lady, I don't give a flying fig newton about how you feel about.it. Those such as yourself who reject the truth, hate it when the truth is presented.
As do you.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
No they are not. When a believer dies he goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. And unbelievers go immediately into the torments side of Hades. Soul sleep is a heresy just as universalism is.
The soul in heaven is seen in these two passages. Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4.
Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be whith Christ, for this is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
2 Corinthians 5:8'we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] Knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. Do you understand what Peter is saying here? He is saying that he (the soul) is in his body. And that he is about to lay his body aside and depart from it. The soul does not sleep. It is the body only, that is described as sleeping because a dead body looks as though it is asleep.
These verses say nothing other than, when we die, it will be as though we slept. You will know nothing other than you fell "asleep" and woke up in another place and time. Sleeping. Physics and all that. 1 Samuel 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive;he brings down to the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) and raises up.
Job 17:13-16. If the only home I hope for is the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell), if I spread out my bed in darkness, if I say to corruption, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'My mother' or 'My sister,' where then is my hope? Who can see any hope for me? Will it go down to the gates of death (the gates of death (hell) will not prevail)? Will we descend together into the dust?"
Job 21:7 Why do the wicked live on, growing old and increasing in power? 13 They spend their years in prosperity and go down to the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) in peace.
Psalm 6:4 Turn, O LORD, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell)?
Psalm 31:17 Let me not be put to shame, O LORD, for I have cried out to you; but let the wicked be put to shame and lie silent in the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell)
Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. 19 The living, the living -- they praise you, as I am doing today;
And many more.......................
I will not ever agree with pagan Christianity (mythology), with all of it's trinities and underworlds and suns (sons) and halos, that there are 2 compartments for those who have died. It disagrees with a number of other scripture. The only place we can find the 2 compartment scenario is in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which you can read about here;//www.city-data.com/forum/14221667-post154.html
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus told the thief that on that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Acts 2:27,31 shows that Jesus went to Hades. As does Ephesians 4:9.
Jesus went to nowhere but the grave, and he did not see decay, just as the Old Testament prophesied. His soul most likely went to tartaroo to preach to the spirits in prison, although, I believe that is probably just paganism in the scripture (yes, I believe there is paganism in the Bible, or the word being mistranslated through the pagan minds of men). He told the thief that he would be with him in paradise, maybe because Jesus understood physics better than us.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Your attacking Scofield again, which again shows a lack of integrity on your part. And scofield has absolutely nothing to do with Revelation 6:9-11. As the passage clearly shows, the souls of the tribulational martyrs are in heaven. Scofield didn't write Revelation 6:9-11.
Attacking or critiquing?? And, considering what a huge mess Scofield has created, both politically and mentally/spiritually in people around the globe, I think I'm being rather nice about it.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
We can see from Revelation 6:9-11, that the tribulational martyrs are in heaven and are awaiting God's judgment on those who had killed them. Revelation 6:9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sayng, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'' 11] And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been should be completed also.
The Jews were the ones who killed the prophets, and those prophet's and saint's blood is crying out. This is talking about all saints before and after Christ. Nothing more. Jesus said to the Jews, "you killed the prophets and their blood is on your heads." This is still the case, only it's not just the Jews who have blood on their hands, now. Time does not matter. This verse would ring true in 500 B.C., 500 A.D., and 2010 A.D.
Romans 11:3. Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? Matthew 23:31. But in saying that, you (the Jews) testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Matthew 23:33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
And, they didn't escape, did they? They were destroyed in "hell" in 70 A.D.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
It is you who had better start to think. And learn. You have no idea how foolish you sound trying to act like you know what your talking about.
Mike, I don't think you know how foolish Christianity as a whole sounds. We have groups here, we have groups there, we have groups everywhere all pointing fingers at each other and the world. Jesus did not come to condemn the world. He came to save it. Christianity, just like the Jews, just doesn't get it.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Revelation 14:9-11 gives the reason why, so why do you ask me if I know the reason? And Revelation 14:10 does not contradict 2 Thess 1:9 which says that 'these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power.
Anybody who worships this world system, in any age, will pay with eonian destruction, but the gates are always open, and everything in the heavens and earth will one day be reconciled to God. Revelation is not the end. The universe will not have a drop of rebellion left in it. That is the word speaking, not me, Mike.
Colossians 1:20. And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Revelation 5:13. Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea (of humanity which Christ calms~~becomes a sea of glass), and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Watch your mouth lady. I do not idolize any man. You exhibit the same lack of integrity as the rest of the universalists in making your accusations. Keep your accusations to yourself.
Originally Posted by Mike555
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
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Originally Posted by iPwn
So you don't think Jesus died for them too? You think he only died for the little sins? Like music downloading?
Jesus died for everyone. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that certain crimes are punishable by death. On God's authority as recorded in the Scriptures.
The heavens have already started shaking, and the "stars" have already started falling. This has been in progress for a long time, now.
The tribulation is a seven year period. The last seven years of the age of Israel, the last 7 years of the 490 year prophecy of Daniel. The tribulation does not begin until after the church is removed from the earth by the rapture.
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They are "angels," and they do eat "dead bodies." They are just not your typical angels with fluffy feathers and wings.
See below.
Yes, Mike, there are regular ol' birds in the Bible which eat bodies after people died, but there is something much bigger going on here.Here are some examples of what I mean by birds being fallen angels or wandering people (and, we should read Revelation through this lens):
For it shall be, [that], as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, [so] the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,which connects to this verse:Matthew 24:28 Wherever there is a carcass ("dead" people), there the vultures will gather.
Revelation 18:2. With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great (this planet)! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
No, the birds that will feast on the dead bodies of those slain when Christ returns are birds. Not fallen angels. When Christ returns, Satan and all fallen angels will be thrown into the pit. There will be no fallen angels around to eat anything. And angels do not eat dead bodies. You've been watching too many Sci-Fi channel movies.
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The adversary is within many people on this planet. Get thee behind me Peter (satan). We are imprisoned. Some are freed, many are not. The fallen will be freed after God's wisdom is manifested to them through his dealings with humanity. He is using them right now to serve a purpose. That is, to bring out the evil within man, to purge the wickedness from people so there will be no more rebellious spirit among God's creatures.
I Kings 22:22. By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
Jeremiah 4:10. Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.â€
Satan is a creature and can only be in one place at at time. At the present moment, Satan and the fallen angels are free on the earth. When Christ returns, he and the other fallen angels will be locked up until the end of the Millennium. Your comments don't have anything to do with my comments.
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The beast is always a political machine (full of people), and it can be tormented in the "lake of fire." When the righteous rule, the beast will be tormented. For instance: "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
~~~>>>>>Revelation 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
(These sound like weapons, which the beast has)
Revelation 9:17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.<<<<<<~~~ The antichrist spirit is in many people and has been since the "last times" 2000 years ago (I John 2:18). We are supposed to be the temple, but we rebel and worship ourselves, our families, our country, people who think like us, and place ourselves and our thoughts (temple) as the head, instead of Christ, who is love. Again, the lake of fire has nothing to do with anything other than God and his throne of fire, which the beast and all who follow it are tormented by. Revelation 14:10. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
The spirit of antichrist is not the man who will be the antichrist.
The beast - the antichrist, is a human being who will be empowered by Satan. He will at one point be slain and come back to life (Revelation 13:14). He will erect a statue- the abomination of desolation, in the temple halfway through the tribulation.
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Here is the verse; Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal (eoninan~nothing is eternal but God) fire prepared for the devil and his demons (they are on this planet in the "furnace"). And, they (Jews) were turned away into the fire in 70 A.D., and they've been there for 2000 years. They were previously in a furnace in Egypt. ( Deuteronomy 4:20. Remember their time in Egypt? God brought them out of the "furnace.") This planet is filled with "birds" who are in the fire, wandering and untethered, until they can find a host, and they are easy prey for these "birds." This planet is full of "fire" and wrath, and the Jews (and many others) are no longer protected or in communion with God. But, there will be mercy, because mercy triumphs over judgment.
(God is the eternal fire and his "breath" ignites it)
Isaiah 30:33. Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.
Jesus was alerting the Jews, who, after 2000, years were out of control. He told them that the fall was coming, which it did in 70 A.D. You are mixing the "lake of fire" with Gehenna (translated hell, here). When Edom came to it's end, it was said in the Bible (Old Testament for those who need to know) that their smoke rose forever and ever and nothing would ever go through again. That, as any historian should know, did not happen, at least, not permanently. Because, when the Bible uses terms, such as forever and ever and worms and whatever else is thrown in there for emphasis, it is trying to help us understand the devastation better. When you take these verses literally, then we have a problem, just as we do if we take "the smoke of their torment went up forever" regarding Edom.
Matthew 25:41,46 has nothing to do with 70 A.D. It has to do with the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation.
And Gehenna is an illustration of the lake of fire.
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The lake of fire has nothing to do with hell, Mike. I keep trying to tell you this. The "sea of glass" is mingled with "fire," and "fire" flows from God's throne (Daniel 7:10). Neither the sea of glass nor the fire is literal, here.
You have no idea of the depth of the deception you are under. The lake of fire is the final and eternal future prison of all unbelievers. It is what the word hell properly refers to. The word hell does not properly belong to Hades. The lake of fire is not in heaven and is not the sea of glass.
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Hades is a mythological concept thought up by the Babylonians/Greeks and others who liked to scare their citizens into behaving. It is entirely a pagan concept. Sheol should have been translated into "grave, which it is, half of the time. The other half translates it "Hades." The translators were awfully confused, it seems. If were to be consistent, we wouldn't have mass confusion over this. It's quite ridiculous.
Hades is the word that the writers of the New Testament chose to use to for the very real place to which the unbeliever goes when he dies.
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What we should have in the Bible is "grave" and "lake of fire." That's all. And, the lake of fire, as I have repeated time and time again, has to do with being tormented (by God's presence) in the presence of the lamb.
The lake of fire is the place where as Revelation 20:11-15 states, the unbeliever will spend eternite future. Revelation 14:10 does not in any way conflict with 2 Thess 1:9 which states. ''And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
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These verses say nothing other than, when we die, it will be as though we slept. You will know nothing other than you fell "asleep" and woke up in another place and time. Sleeping. Physics and all that. 1 Samuel 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive;he brings down to the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) and raises up.
Job 17:13-16. If the only home I hope for is the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell), if I spread out my bed in darkness, if I say to corruption, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'My mother' or 'My sister,' where then is my hope? Who can see any hope for me? Will it go down to the gates of death (the gates of death (hell) will not prevail)? Will we descend together into the dust?"
Job 21:7 Why do the wicked live on, growing old and increasing in power? 13 They spend their years in prosperity and go down to the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) in peace.
Psalm 6:4 Turn, O LORD, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell)?
Psalm 31:17 Let me not be put to shame, O LORD, for I have cried out to you; but let the wicked be put to shame and lie silent in the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell)
Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave (Hebrew, sheol=hell) cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. 19 The living, the living -- they praise you, as I am doing today;
And many more.......................
You are attempting to use verses you don't understand to contradict passages which clearly state that the believer goes into the presence of the Lord at the moment of death.
The soul in heaven is seen in these two passages. Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4. The soul in heaven after death means NO SOUL SLEEP!!!
Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be whith Christ, for this is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
2 Corinthians 5:8 'we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] Knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. Do you understand what Peter is saying here? He is saying that he (the soul) is in his body. And that he is about to lay his body aside and depart from it. The soul does not sleep. It is the body only, that is described as sleeping because a dead body looks as though it is asleep.
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The only place in the entire Bible where we have the 2 compartment scenario, which contradicts hundreds of other verses about the afterlife, is in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Parables were meant to conceal information. And, boy, has it!!
The Bible only has to say a thing once for it to be true.
Jesus told the thief that on that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Acts 2:27,31 shows that Jesus went to Hades. As does Ephesians 4:9.
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I will not ever agree with pagan Christianity (mythology), with all of it's trinities and underworlds and suns (sons) and halos, that there are 2 compartments for those who have died. It disagrees with a number of other scripture. The only place we can find the 2 compartment scenario is in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, which you can read about here;//www.city-data.com/forum/14221667-post154.html
Christianity by definition is not pagan. Pagan refers to that which is not Christian.
The Bible does not disagree with itself. Luke 16:19-31 is a rabbinic story in which Jesus illustrated the reality of Hades.
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Jesus went to nowhere but the grave, and he did not see decay, just as the Old Testament prophesied. His soul most likely went to tartaroo to preach to the spirits in prison, although, I believe that is probably just paganism in the scripture (yes, I believe there is paganism in the Bible, or the word being mistranslated through the pagan minds of men). He told the thief that he would be with him in paradise, maybe because Jesus understood physics better than us.
To the contrary. First of all the Old Testament calls it Sheol. In the New Testament is is called Hades.
Hades is spoken of in Acts 2:27 concernng Jesus after He had died.
Acts 2:27 'Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow Thy holy one to undergo decay. And in Acts 2:31 'He looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
In both verses, there is a distinction between Jesus' soul - psuche which went to the paradise side of Hades - hadou, and His body - sarx, which went into the tomb - mnema.
Now compare the verses listed above with Ephesians 4:9 '(Now this expression, 'He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? It's the last part of the verse you should notice. He descended into the lower parts of the earth.
Hades is in the lower parts of the earth. In the interior of the earth. Jesus' tomb was cut into rock above ground level.
Jesus' body - sarx - in a tomb - mnema, above ground level.
Jesus' soul - psuche - in Hades - hadou - in the lower parts of the earth.
Jesus promised the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be in Paradise with Him that very day (Luke 23:43). Before Christ was resurrected, Paradise was the part of Hades where believers went after they died.
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Attacking or critiquing?? And, considering what a huge mess Scofield has created, both politically and mentally/spiritually in people around the globe, I think I'm being rather nice about it.
That's nonsense. Scofield is not responsible for anyones problems. He did an excellent job of analysing and summarizing the Bible in the English Bible.
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The Jews were the ones who killed the prophets, and those prophet's and saint's blood is crying out. This is talking about all saints before and after Christ. Nothing more. Jesus said to the Jews, "you killed the prophets and their blood is on your heads." This is still the case, only it's not just the Jews who have blood on their hands, now. Time does not matter. This verse would ring true in 500 B.C., 500 A.D., and 2010 A.D.
Turn to Relation 20:4 where it tells you straight out that John saw the souls of tribulational martyrs (in Heaven), those who in the tribulation (still future) did not worship the beast or take the mark on their forehead.
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Mike, I don't think you know how foolish Christianity as a whole sounds. We have groups here, we have groups there, we have groups everywhere all pointing fingers at each other and the world. Jesus did not come to condemn the world. He came to save it. Christianity, just like the Jews, just doesn't get it.
Forget the groups. What matters is what the word of God says. Those who refuse God's offer of eternal salvation will remain under eternal condemnation.
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Anybody who worships this world system, in any age, will pay with eonian destruction, but the gates are always open, and everything in the heavens and earth will one day be reconciled to God. Revelation is not the end. The universe will not have a drop of rebellion left in it. That is the word speaking, not me, Mike.
Colossians 1:20. And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Revelation 5:13. Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea (of humanity which Christ calms~~becomes a sea of glass), and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Lol. That's all I have to say about that.
To the contrary. You again attempt to use Scripture you don't understand to contradict Scripture which plainly states that those who reject Christ will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.
You don't see anything in Colossians 1:20 about those under the earth do you!!!
And in Revelation 5:13 those under the earth - those who are not saved, will not be singing. They are the defeated enemies of Christ who have been made a footstool for His feet (Luke 20:42-43).
The tribulation is a seven year period. The last seven years of the age of Israel, the last 7 years of the 490 year prophecy of Daniel. The tribulation does not begin until after the church is removed from the earth by the rapture.
No, the birds that will feast on the dead bodies of those slain when Christ returns are birds. Not fallen angels. When Christ returns, Satan and all fallen angels will be thrown into the pit. There will be no fallen angels around to eat anything. And angels do not eat dead bodies. You've been watching too many Sci-Fi channel movies.
Satan is a creature and can only be in one place at at time. At the present moment, Satan and the fallen angels are free on the earth. When Christ returns, he and the other fallen angels will be locked up until the end of the Millennium. Your comments don't have anything to do with my comments.
The spirit of antichrist is not the man who will be the antichrist.
The beast - the antichrist, is a human being who will be empowered by Satan. He will at one point be slain and come back to life (Revelation 13:14). He will erect a statue- the abomination of desolation, in the temple halfway through the tribulation.
Matthew 25:41,46 has nothing to do with 70 A.D. It has to do with the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation.
And Gehenna is an illustration of the lake of fire.
You have no idea of the depth of the deception you are under. The lake of fire is the final and eternal future prison of all unbelievers. It is what the word hell properly refers to. The word hell does not properly belong to Hades. The lake of fire is not in heaven and is not the sea of glass.
Hades is the word that the writers of the New Testament chose to use to for the very real place to which the unbeliever goes when he dies.
The lake of fire is the place where as Revelation 20:11-15 states, the unbeliever will spend eternite future. Revelation 14:10 does not in any way conflict with 2 Thess 1:9 which states. ''And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
You are attempting to use verses you don't understand to contradict passages which clearly state that the believer goes into the presence of the Lord at the moment of death.
The soul in heaven is seen in these two passages. Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4. The soul in heaven after death means NO SOUL SLEEP!!!
Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be whith Christ, for this is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
2 Corinthians 5:8 'we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] Knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. Do you understand what Peter is saying here? He is saying that he (the soul) is in his body. And that he is about to lay his body aside and depart from it. The soul does not sleep. It is the body only, that is described as sleeping because a dead body looks as though it is asleep.
The Bible only has to say a thing once for it to be true.
Jesus told the thief that on that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Acts 2:27,31 shows that Jesus went to Hades. As does Ephesians 4:9.
Christianity by definition is not pagan. Pagan refers to that which is not Christian.
The Bible does not disagree with itself. Luke 16:19-31 is a rabbinic story in which Jesus illustrated the reality of Hades.
To the contrary. First of all the Old Testament calls it Sheol. In the New Testament is is called Hades.
Hades is spoken of in Acts 2:27 concernng Jesus after He had died.
Acts 2:27 'Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow Thy holy one to undergo decay. And in Acts 2:31 'He looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
In both verses, there is a distinction between Jesus' soul - psuche which went to the paradise side of Hades - hadou, and His body - sarx, which went into the tomb - mnema.
Now compare the verses listed above with Ephesians 4:9 '(Now this expression, 'He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? It's the last part of the verse you should notice. He descended into the lower parts of the earth.
Hades is in the lower parts of the earth. In the interior of the earth. Jesus' tomb was cut into rock above ground level.
Jesus' body - sarx - in a tomb - mnema, above ground level.
Jesus' soul - psuche - in Hades - hadou - in the lower parts of the earth.
Jesus promised the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be in Paradise with Him that very day (Luke 23:43). Before Christ was resurrected, Paradise was the part of Hades where believers went after they died.
That's nonsense. Scofield is not responsible for anyones problems. He did an excellent job of analysing and summarizing the Bible in the English Bible.
Turn to Relation 20:4 where it tells you straight out that John saw the souls of tribulational martyrs (in Heaven), those who in the tribulation (still future) did not worship the beast or take the mark on their forehead.
Forget the groups. What matters is what the word of God says. Those who refuse God's offer of eternal salvation will remain under eternal condemnation.
To the contrary. You again attempt to use Scripture you don't understand to contradict Scripture which plainly states that those who reject Christ will spend eternity future in the lake of fire.
You don't see anything in Colossians 1:20 about those under the earth do you!!!
And in Revelation 5:13 those under the earth - those who are not saved, will not be singing. They are the defeated enemies of Christ who have been made a footstool for His feet (Luke 20:42-43).
I've said what I wanted to say. Thanks for the debate.
Lol. It used to make me angry when posters on here attacked me for loving like a hippie. Now, I truly just don't care anymore. I guess they mean that kind of stoned, love everybody, sit around and raise crops, tune out, forget the establishment, kind of people. Interestingly enough, my mom, towards the end, said maybe the hippies had it right, or at least the Jesus people of the 60s. When life consistently beats you down into a puddle, you do start wondering if you should just stop fighting and surrender. You know what I mean? I can much more easily see jesus hanging out with the hippies better than I can see him in a suit and tie hanging out at the white house or on wall street. I think the church wants a tough, cowboy-hat wearing, maching gun firing, avenging jesus. Kind of like terminator. Maybe that's what's wrong with the church system? Won't they be sorry? It's love that conquers, not bombs.
I have a question,if Hitler was posessed,which I think he was...is he then not responsible for what he did?or at least not to the extent that he did it? this has me confused..
Though I don't know what other sites you visit ... it's not a matter of "if you don't believe in a literal hell" that damns a person. What damns a person is "not having the true belief in Jesus".
Yeah, right, like poor doubting Thomas (he must have gone to hell for his unbelief) and others of whom Jesus said..."ye of little faith"....
The teaching of eternal hell/punishment leads to hell on earth and also causes insanity. It is a doctrine OF DEMONS.
Yeah, right, like poor doubting Thomas (he must have gone to hell for his unbelief) and others of whom Jesus said..."ye of little faith"....
The teaching of eternal hell/punishment leads to hell on earth and also causes insanity. It is a doctrine OF DEMONS.
amen.imagine all the ppl out there who are upset thinking their loved ones may be in hell...but yet there is no fear in Jesus.there shouldn't be.He said so himself.
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