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I understand fully what the passage means. You had better take your own advice and learn what it means.
It means that if you reject Christ as Savior, you are going to spend the eternal future in the lake of fire. As many of you universalists are going to find out first hand.
Really? Firsthand, huh? So you are saying that Universalists are not Christians? We're all going to be burning forever in your lake of fire because you say so? You bolded it, like that makes it true. You really derive great pleasure from believing this, don't you? Sick.
The real problem, to me, isn't this or that Bible verse but the logic of the whole thing; Christianity (in it's fundamentalist form, at least) teaches two things that simply don't have any groundings in real life:
1. that perfect justice requires eternal punishment - if this where true then sharia law would be more just than American or European law; You don't make law more perfect by making it more brutal. And why would offense against perfect being require eternal punishment? If the being is infinite it means that no mortal can harm him at all. If harm is zero, how can punishment be infinite?
2. that it is just for one being to pay for crimes (or sins) of another -If I rob a bank, my father cannot go to jail instead of me. Everyone would cry injustice if such a law existed. And if we where to follow Jesus example, (as interpreted by many) then such a thing SHOULD be possible, right? People even hate the fact that the rich have better lawyers than the poor. Because no one should be able to pay their way out of prison, right?
So what we really have here is god who is unjust in two ways: he punishes one group of people more than they deserve and threats others far better.
Fundamentalist theology doesn't preach perfect justice. It preaches subversion of justice.
It's better that there's a hell to punish Hitler, even if the same hell punishes six million Jews. Some would rather six million Jews suffer than Hitler be allowed into heaven.
'Accountability' and 'Justice' means an equally (even with the so-called 'degrees') infinite extreme punishment for finite sins.
'Mercy' is restricted to 0.00000001% of the length of a person's total existence.
INFINITE pain = infinite fear = infinite ability to do and believe anything
Why must people be so dogmatic about this doctrine? I visited a couple of sites which say that those who don't believe in a literal lake of fire will be sent there, are idolators and heretics...I wonder if they've forgotten what love is.
Is our main purpose to scare people or to demonstrate God's love?
You nailed it- it's to scare people. That really seems to be the only purpose for organized religion, which is only able to suck people in by using FEAR. And teaching against the aforementioned is the very reason jesus himself existed, and as well the exact reason I'm so confused as to why everyone is talking about jesus as if they know and love him- and yet there is such a disturbing lack of understanding as to what exactly he was teaching. Which was NOT "justice' the way most people understand justice to be, and if people would use their heads for a moment, and let go of their fear and ire they'd see that. But it's pretty obvious that people would rather be RIGHT than be AT PEACE...not to mention be kind, reasonable and tolerant. Which is what jesus taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Little bird, here is a quote which may fit:
"A special kind of beauty exists in a single language that is not isolated, it's called love."
And love never fails!
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Amen, friend...
What a beautiful quote!
Love is the most powerful thing there is... for God IS Love.
AGREED! With both of you. But that doesn't help promote the hellfire damnation aspect that keeps the sheep under the blanket of their dogma so, what good is that? Just realizing, understanding, and acting in LOVE requires thought, and personal responsibility. Which is the EXACT and basic crux of what jesus taught. And if we were all to listen and live jesus' teachings we would not need any religion- (something jesus did NOT want anyway)- and thus there would be no need for religion- or, really, government. And that's it right there- people aren't ready for that.
The simple fact that people are SO quick to misinterpret the bible as well as jesus, and are so easily led to believe/act in a manner of ugliness to such an extreme degree does indicate that the idea of justice, as some see it in the bible or other religious works, is something that needs addressed. But please- can we at least not bring jesus into this? If you're going to quote the old testament and so forth- fine. That is ALL about justice. But jesus? Don't bring him into it. If he were here, he'd outright cry. And probably say something diplomatic and kind- and no doubt you'd either twist that around, or just ignore it like you do with most of the stuff he says...*sigh*...
Anyway JUSTICE is really just KARMA- or "spirital law". And jesus most certainly spoke about this, just not in the simplified way some of you think. Jesus was a master of the "occult" if you will, and had a very vast understanding of the spiritual world in all aspects, and within various cultures/religions, and knew full well the parts and roles we humans have within.
So when you speak of all that you did above regarding justice, accountability, mercy etc.- these things are all taken care of, and jesus explained this fully, in various ways and on various occasions. And he NEVER once said it was about vengeance or revenge in an offensive nature, nor did he say that WE are to enact and secure justice on our own, in any regard. Though of course I do believe the law is the exception for obvious reasons; but what I mean is that we will reap what we sow because physical and spiritual law is undeniable. Therefore it is best to love, forgive, and move forward. Seeing justice upon another- and as well expecting or, especially, fearing justice from some sort of external, anthropomorphized "god" is, simply put, living falsely and outside of the love that is meant to be as god and jesus tried (and, sadly) failed to teach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
I guess that just never made any sense to me. That it doesn't matter what kind of a person you have been or what kind of life you have led - all that matters is your belief in Jesus. You could have been horrible to everyone - but as long as you believed in Jesus - God would see you as perfect. Where is the justice in that? Unless God is a megalomaniac - it seems that he would be more concerned with what is in our hearts and how we lived our lives. But that's just silly old me thinking that things should make sense in order for me to believe in them.
That sums it up right there. You're THINKING- which goes completely and totally against most organized religions. Of course you know this, and as well it's obvious that some other people do not. Again- it's about taking personal responsibility and living as you know in your heart you should be living, in order to be THE best person you can be which will not only suit you and make YOU happy and content, but everyone around you as well. THAT is spiritual advancement, and true justice. Served.
Readers may refer back to post #56 to see what this fella is calling 'Bible bashing'.
Mike you quote your own posts as if they are scripture , you need to start adding verses to your posts .
Bible bashing does not necessarily mean quoting a bunch of scripture , to me it means preaching in the flesh , usually with fear thrown in, probably because it's though fear that the bible basher came to be one.
It's better that there's a hell to punish Hitler, even if the same hell punishes six million Jews. Some would rather six million Jews suffer than Hitler be allowed into heaven.
'Accountability' and 'Justice' means an equally (even with the so-called 'degrees') infinite extreme punishment for finite sins.
'Mercy' is restricted to 0.00000001% of the length of a person's total existence.
INFINITE pain = infinite fear = infinite ability to do and believe anything
Why must people be so dogmatic about this doctrine? I visited a couple of sites which say that those who don't believe in a literal lake of fire will be sent there, are idolators and heretics...I wonder if they've forgotten what love is.
Is our main purpose to scare people or to demonstrate God's love?
I'm a Christian and you know what justice means to me? Having A-Rod come up in the ninth inning of the ALCS and strike out against his former team the Texas Rangers. There, is that justice enough for you?
I'm a Christian and you know what justice means to me? Having A-Rod come up in the ninth inning of the ALCS and strike out against his former team the Texas Rangers. There, is that justice enough for you?
I guess that just never made any sense to me. That it doesn't matter what kind of a person you have been or what kind of life you have led - all that matters is your belief in Jesus. You could have been horrible to everyone - but as long as you believed in Jesus - God would see you as perfect. Where is the justice in that? Unless God is a megalomaniac - it seems that he would be more concerned with what is in our hearts and how we lived our lives. But that's just silly old me thinking that things should make sense in order for me to believe in them.
Well, you're right in theory. As I said earlier, Christians should sin less. Being born again results in a changed life. Can someone be born again on their deathbed? Sure, if they're sincere. The thief on the cross is a perfect example. On the other hand, becoming a Christian is not just reciting words, or saying, "I believe." It's a change of heart. If a person is sincere, Christ's righteousness is imputed to him/her, & God sees them as righteous.
How do you believe a person will be considered worthy by God? Living a good life? How good? What is the standard?
Well, you're right in theory. As I said earlier, Christians should sin less. Being born again results in a changed life. Can someone be born again on their deathbed? Sure, if they're sincere. The thief on the cross is a perfect example. On the other hand, becoming a Christian is not just reciting words, or saying, "I believe." It's a change of heart. If a person is sincere, Christ's righteousness is imputed to him/her, & God sees them as righteous.
How do you believe a person will be considered worthy by God? Living a good life? How good? What is the standard?
I don't know that I believe in God. But my idea of God is much different than the Christian idea of God. I believe, if there is some sort of God, force, supreme being, or divine consciousness that created everything - that he/she/it did so out of love or interest or adventure. I don't believe that they would have created this vast universe fillled with so many amazing things - and then torture most of us forever because we didn't worship him. I also don't believe that there is some sort of "checklist" that he has that he judges us by when we die. To be honest with you, I really don't believe in an afterlife. But if there is something after death - I don't believe that it is heaven and hell - I believe that our spirit or soul or life energy is merely set free and becomes one with all the other spirits or souls or energies. I don't believe that some of us go somewhere and some of us go somewhere else. We are all people and we are all made of the same thing.
I believe in being the best people we can be. I believe in living life in love, kindness, generosity, understanding, humor, adventure, and laughter.
I'm trying to understand Christianity and Christians - but it seems that the ones that believe the most also seem to be the angriest, meannest, and cruelest. This is baffling to me. And it seems the God they believe in is also angry, mean, cruel, and narcissitic. I can't wrap my head around that. I look at this earth and I look around me - and I can't see all of this being created by an angry, cruel, megalomaniac. And doesn't it say in the Bible that "the greatest of these is love" - so shouldn't love trump everything? Where is the "love" in sending most people to a lake of eternal hellfire simply for being honest? I honestly don't believe in Christianity. I could like and say I do - but that would make me a hypocrite. I honestly don't believe in any organized religion - and Christians don't believe in any of them either - except for Christianity. I just believe in one less religion.
How is telling others that they are going to "burn" and they'll find out how wrong they are when they die and are sent to hell - justice? Love? It sounds vengeful and cruel. Definitely doesn't sound like love to me. The greatest of these is love... except when interacting with others? Except for God? Except for Christians???
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You bolded it, like that makes it true. You really derive great pleasure from believing this, don't you? Sick.
