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Did you ever watch old westerns like Gunsmoke and Bonanza?
You and my dad would have been buddies...lol He loved Gunsmoke. But the one he really loved was Combat, with Vic Morrow. I can still hear the sound of the machine guns from the TV in the living room and my mom yelling "turn that thing off, you'll scare the children"...LOL
If you claim to be a Biblical literalist you should believe the torment will occur in front of the redeemed:
Isaiah 66:24:
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Isa 66:24 is not referring to the lake of fire. It refers to the time when Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation and slays those who have fought against Him. Their bodies will be left on the ground for the vultures to feed on as indicated in Matthew 24:28 ''Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. Revelation 19:11-20 goes into detail. Starting with verse 14, 'And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15] And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16] And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'' 17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ''Come, assemble for the great supper of God; 18] in order that you may eat the flish of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.'' 19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army. 20] And the beast was seized, and with im the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire and brimstone. 21] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Related to this are Zech 14:1-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 which deals with the judgment of individual Gentiles, and Ezek 20:34-38 which deals with God's judgment of Israel. It's all about separating from among the tribulational survivors, the believers from the unbelievers. Only believers will be allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom. All surviving unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41,46.
Jesus in illustrating the future final judgment in the lake of fire symbolized by the burning garbage dump known as Gehenna, drew on the description in Isaiah 66:24 concerning the worms which shall not die, and the fire not being quenched. He applied this language to present an image of the very real lake of fire which would be understandable to the Jews.
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Revelation 14:9-12:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Not to mention this was something many Jews, theologians in the past 2,000 years.etc believed.
Revelation 14:9-12 certainly states that those punished will be punished in the presence of Jesus and the angels. Compare this passage with 2 Thess 1:6 'For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. Matthew 25:31 says, 'But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
There is no contradiction here between being tormented in the presence of the Lamb and paying the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord. Jesus Christ is God, and as such, is omnipresent. The unbeliever has no relationship with God and is therefore separated from God. Those who are in Hades and later, the lake of fire will not likely have any awareness of God, but since God is everywhere present, His presence will be manifested in those places. The angels apparently will be witnesses to the punishment. The passage doesn't say that any believer will be witness to it. Then again, it doesn't say that they won't. Tribulational believers will perhaps be present to witness the sentencing at the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46
We can see from Revelation 6:9-11, that the tribulational martyrs are in heaven and are awaiting God's judgment on those who had killed them.
We can't know the exact details concerning the events which will take place. But the Scriptures are clear concerning the nature of the judgments.
At the end of human history, a thousand years after the events mentioned in the passages above, the great white throne judgment will take place in which all unbelievers will stand before Jesus Christ who will order them into the lake of fire forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
And I for one, am in complete agreement with God about the whole thing.
First, let's get one thing straight. Much of Revelation already happened or is in the process of happening right now.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
It refers to the time when Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation and slays those who have fought against Him. Their bodies will be left on the ground for the vultures to feed on as indicated in Matthew 24:28 ''Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. Revelation 19:11-20 goes into detail. Starting with verse 14, 'And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15] And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16]
That sword is the truth, Mike. It will come out one day.After religion crumbles.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ''KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'' 17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ''Come, assemble for the great supper of God; 18] in order that you may eat the flish of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''
These birds are angels. Birds often represent fallen beings. This is a vision, and the vision of Revelation is just that, a vision. Taking Revelation, literally, leaves you blind. The fallen angels will feast on those who enjoy darkness.And humanity will be tormented by them.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army. 20] And the beast was seized, and with im the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image;
The beast, in the Bible, always represents a political machine. This political machine sounds like it is trying to overthrow God and rule the world, and it's false prophet is religion, which is tied to it. If we are worshiping it's image (Yes, I believe it's going on right now) we will be tormented by it. People have no rest day or night when they are following this world and it's present order, which the beast (politics) and ***** (false religious system) run.The system has done an enormously good job at tormenting people. Fallen humanity's number is 666.
(how hard is it for people to buy and sell in this present system (religious/political), without being a part of it? What happens when you don't nod and wink and play the game with those running things? What kinds of people get thrown to the bottom of the pile? The kinds of people Jesus hung out with?)
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Originally Posted by Mike555
these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire and brimstone. 21] And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
It's not, "these two," as though it's 2 human beings. You couldn't manage to be any further off, here. The birds (demonic) will be filled with humanity's minds and bodies, or maybe I should say, humanity's minds and bodies are filled with these "birds."
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Related to this are Zech 14:1-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 which deals with the judgment of individual Gentiles, and Ezek 20:34-38 which deals with God's judgment of Israel. It's all about separating from among the tribulational survivors, the believers from the unbelievers. Only believers will be allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom. All surviving unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41,46.
This is all complete and utter nonsense. Scofield, who started this foolishness, has led thousands, no, millions into a trance. Believers do not know that right now Revelation is being played out. And the modern day church system is playing a big part in it. Although, not the part they wanted, I'd say.
Confusion is rampant, right now, as it should be, as the truth is starting to come out. And the more it does, the harder the religious system is going to kick and scream, and the more it is going to decide that the ends justify the means.It will be a sorry state of affairs.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus in illustrating the future final judgment in the lake of fire symbolized by the burning garbage dump known as Gehenna, drew on the description in Isaiah 66:24 concerning the worms which shall not die, and the fire not being quenched. He applied this language to present an image of the very real lake of fire which would be understandable to the Jews.
Isaiah 34:10: It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.
That was a verse, from Isaiah, which is almost verbatim to the verse in Revelation, from the New Testament. This one is talking about Edom. Of course, we all know that it's smoke did stop rising, and people are passing through it. There is a reason for this type of writing. It has a big impact on people, doesn't it?
Revelation 14:9-12 certainly states that those punished will be punished in the presence of Jesus and the angels. Compare this passage with 2 Thess 1:6 'For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire 8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. Matthew 25:31 says, 'But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
You already know that nothing is eternal but God, and it is eonian destruction, meaning that they will be kicked out just like the Jews have been for 2000 years, into spiritual darkness. It is not a permanent condition, because Revelation is not the last word on the matter. The Bible is not in perfect order. You probably know that already, right?Here is the last word (that we know of) on the end of all things on this planet.
God has given His Son "authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him" (John 17:2). "The Father has given ALL things into the Son's hands" (John 3:35) and so "ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6)
So God's plan is "to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has "put ALL things under Christ's feet" (Ephesians 1:22) and has "given ALL things into his hands" (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to "draw ALL men" to Himself (John 12:32) because "the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand" (John 3:35).
"Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For 'God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says 'all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
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Originally Posted by Mike555
There is no contradiction here between being tormented in the presence of the Lamb and paying the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord. Jesus Christ is God, and as such, is omnipresent. The unbeliever has no relationship with God and is therefore separated from God. Those who are in Hades and later, the lake of fire will not likely have any awareness of God, but since God is everywhere present, His presence will be manifested in those places.
First off, Mike, I'm not pleased that you keep reinforcing the belief in pagan underworlds. People who are dead right now are sleeping. The only place in the entire Bible where we have the 2 compartment scenario, which contradictshundreds of other verses about the afterlife, is in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Parables were meant to conceal information. And, boy, has it!!
And, here are the differences between what the pagans taught about the afterlife and what Jesus taught:
Isaiah 29:13. And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men.
Hebrews 2:15. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
We can see from Revelation 6:9-11, that the tribulational martyrs are in heaven and are awaiting God's judgment on those who had killed them.
Scofield, not the Bible. Scofield was a very confused man. Either that, or he was up to no good. I try to always think the best of people, though, so I'm going to go with misguided individual.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
At the end of human history, a thousand years after the events mentioned in the passages above, the great white throne judgment will take place in which all unbelievers will stand before Jesus Christ who will order them into the lake of fire forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
People will be judged at the throne, and those still in the dark will be tormented by the presence of the lamb? Do you know why?You really have to start thinking about these things on your own. It's getting late.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
And I for one, am in complete agreement with God about the whole thing.
You are in complete agreement with other men whom you idolize, not God, Mike.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-22-2010 at 07:15 PM..
Imputed or not, Christians sin like anyone else. There is no evidence that what you are talking about is actually happening in real life. Communism worked in theory, too.
The real problem with all your theories is that they are not connected to reality at all.
You misunderstand. Imputed righteousness does not mean Christians live a sinless life. Certainly, Christians should sin less. Rather, it means that on Judgement Day, God will not see our sin, but instead Jesus' righteousness.
You misunderstand. Imputed righteousness does not mean Christians live a sinless life. Certainly, Christians should sin less. Rather, it means that on Judgement Day, God will not see our sin, but instead Jesus' righteousness.
I guess that just never made any sense to me. That it doesn't matter what kind of a person you have been or what kind of life you have led - all that matters is your belief in Jesus. You could have been horrible to everyone - but as long as you believed in Jesus - God would see you as perfect. Where is the justice in that? Unless God is a megalomaniac - it seems that he would be more concerned with what is in our hearts and how we lived our lives. But that's just silly old me thinking that things should make sense in order for me to believe in them.
Despicable means to achieve laudable goals, renders them contemptible, even, though the eyes may see; the mind will not believe.
'He who believes the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath (displeasure) of God abides on him.' (John 3:36)
Mike, you should at least try to understand what this truly means, as you tarry in the condition and attitude of unbelief:
First, let's get one thing straight. Much of Revelation already happened or is in the process of happening right now.
To the contrary. After chapter 3 the church is in heaven as a result of the rapture and than the judgments of the tribulation begin. And that's all future.
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These birds are angels. Birds often represent fallen beings. This is a vision, and the vision of Revelation is just that, a vision. Taking Revelation, literally, leaves you blind. The fallen angels will feast on those who enjoy darkness. [b]And humanity will be tormented by them.
No the birds are not angels. Angels, fallen or othewise do not eat dead bodies. The birds are vultures who are eating the corpses of all those who are killed by Christ when He returns. You had better realize that when Christ returns, He is not coming back as a Lamb. He is coming back as the lion of Judah. And He will kill millions whose bodies will be left on the ground for the vultures to feast on.
Here are other passages concerning birds of the air devouring the bodies of the slain. Some of these of fulfilled in the past, and others concern the return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
Jeremiah 7:32 'Therefore, behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ''when it will no more be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. 33] ''And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky, and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away.
Deuteronomy 28:26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away.
Psalm 79:2 They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth.
Jeremiah 12:9 Has not my inheritance become to me like a speckled bird of prey that other birds of prey surround and attack? Go and gather all the wild beasts; bring them to devour.
Jeremiah 15:3 "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," declares the LORD, "the sword to kill and the dogs to drag away and the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy.
Jeremiah 19:7 "'In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:20 I will hand over to their enemies who seek their lives. Their dead bodies will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.
Ezekiel 29:5 I will leave you in the desert, you and all the fish of your streams. You will fall on the open field and not be gathered or picked up. I will give you as food to the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air.
And now for Ezekiel 39:4-20 which is future concerning God and Magog.
Eze 39:4''You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops, and the peoples who are with you; I shall give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field. 5] ''You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken,''declares the Lord God. 6] And I shall send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD. 7] ''And My holy name I shall make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I shall not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. 8] ''Behold, it is coming and it shall be done,'' declares the Lord God. ''That is the day of which I have spoken'' 9] Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out, and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears and for seven years they will make fires of them. 10] ''And they will not take wood from the field or firewood from the forest, for they will make fires with the weapons; and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them, and seize the plunder of those who plundered them,'' declares the Lord GOD. 11] And it will come about on that day that I shall give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off the passer-by. So they will bury Gog there with all his multitude, and they will call it the valley of Hamon-gog 12] ''For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13] ''Even all the people of the land will bury them; and it will be to their renown on that day that I glorify Myself,'' declares the Lord GOD. 14] ''And they will set apart men who will constantly pass through te land, burying those who were passing through, even those left on the surface of the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15] ''And as those whoo pjass through the land pass through and anyone sees a mans bone, then he will set up a marker by it until the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog. 16] ''And even the name of the city will be Hamonah. So they will cleanse the land.'' 17] ''And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord God, ''Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field. ''Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18] ''You shall eat the flesh of mighty men, and drink the bolld of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats, and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19] ''So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20] ''And you will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,'' declares the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 39:4-20 takes place during the Millennial kingdom. The fallen angels will be imprisoned along with Satan during the Millennium. And don't say show me a verse where it says that the fallen angels will be locked away. It is common sense that if Satan is going to be locked away during the Millennium, so will the other fallen angels.
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The beast, in the Bible, always represents a political machine. This political machine sounds like it is trying to overthrow God and rule the world, and it's false prophet is religion, which is tied to it. If we are worshiping it's image (Yes, I believe it's going on right now) we will be tormented by it. People have no rest day or night when they are following this world and it's present order, which the beast (politics) and ***** (false religious system) run.The system has done an enormously good job at tormenting people. Fallen humanity's number is 666.
(how hard is it for people to buy and sell in this present system (religious/political), without being a part of it? What happens when you don't nod and wink and play the game with those running things? What kinds of people get thrown to the bottom of the pile? The kinds of people Jesus hung out with?)
It's not, "these two," as though it's 2 human beings. You couldn't manage to be any further off, here. The birds (demonic) will be filled with humanity's minds and bodies, or maybe I should say, humanity's minds and bodies are filled with these "birds."
The beast is not a political machine. The beast (the antichrist) is a man who will midway through the tribulation place a statue of himself in the temple (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15) The antichrist is a man who along with the false prophet, also a man (a political machine can't be a prophet) will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever (A political machine can't be tormented).
The beast - the antichrist, is the man of lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thess 2:3-4. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessnes is revealed, the son of destruction 4] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his esat in the temmmple of God, displaying himself as being God. .
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This is all complete and utter nonsense. Scofield, who started this foolishness, has led thousands, no, millions into a trance. Believers do not know that right now Revelation is being played out. And the modern day church system is playing a big part in it. Although, not the part they wanted, I'd say.
Your comment above is about the following.
Originally Posted by Mike555
Related to this are Zech 14:1-9 and Matthew 25:31-46 which deals with the judgment of individual Gentiles, and Ezek 20:34-38 which deals with God's judgment of Israel. It's all about separating from among the tribulational survivors, the believers from the unbelievers. Only believers will be allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom. All surviving unbelievers will be cast into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41,46.
C. I. Scofield has nothing to do with it. This is Scripture. This is the word of God. Jesus Christ is going to judge when He comes back and He is going to throw all tribulational unbelievers into the eternal fire as is planly recorded in Matthew 25:41,46.
Revelation is not being played out right now. Except for the first three chapters of Revelation, which deals with the church on earth, everything else is future.
And attacking Scofield shows a lack of character.
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Isaiah 34:10: It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.
That was a verse, from Isaiah, which is almost verbatim to the verse in Revelation, from the New Testament. This one is talking about Edom. Of course, we all know that it's smoke did stop rising, and people are passing through it. There is a reason for this type of writing. It has a big impact on people, doesn't it?
Your comment above is with regard to what I said below...
'Originally Posted by Mike555
Jesus in illustrating the future final judgment in the lake of fire symbolized by the burning garbage dump known as Gehenna, drew on the description in Isaiah 66:24 concerning the worms which shall not die, and the fire not being quenched. He applied this language to present an image of the very real lake of fire which would be understandable to the Jews.'
Jesus used figuative language to describe in ways that the Jews would understand the reality of the lake of fire.
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You already know that nothing is eternal but God, and it is eonian destruction, meaning that they will be kicked out just like the Jews have been for 2000 years, into spiritual darkness. It is not a permanent condition, because Revelation is not the last word on the matter. The Bible is not in perfect order. You probably know that already, right?Here is the last word (that we know of) on the end of all things on this planet.
God has given His Son "authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him" (John 17:2). "The Father has given ALL things into the Son's hands" (John 3:35) and so "ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6)
So God's plan is "to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has "put ALL things under Christ's feet" (Ephesians 1:22) and has "given ALL things into his hands" (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to "draw ALL men" to Himself (John 12:32) because "the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand" (John 3:35).
"Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For 'God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says 'all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
To the contrary. Both Satan and the fallen angels, and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire at the end of human history which is the end of the Millennium. That is when the lake of fire becomes the permanent residence of all who have rebelled against Christ. There is nothing eonian about it.
And you are using the typical passages that universalists use to promote that heresy. God's plan involves separating from Him for all eternity future, those who rebelled against Him.
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First off, Mike, I'm not pleased that you keep reinforcing the belief in pagan underworlds.
Hades and the lake of fire are Biblical and are reality. The writers of the New Testament chose to use the Greek word Hades to identify the place that in the Hebrew is called Sheol.
And lady, I don't give a flying fig newton about how you feel about.it. Those such as yourself who reject the truth, hate it when the truth is presented.
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People who are dead right now are sleeping.
No they are not. When a believer dies he goes immediately into the presence of the Lord. And unbelievers go immediately into the torments side of Hades. Soul sleep is a heresy just as universalism is.
The soul in heaven is seen in these two passages. Revelation 6:9-11; 20:4.
Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be whith Christ, for this is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
2 Corinthians 5:8 'we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] Knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. Do you understand what Peter is saying here? He is saying that he (the soul) is in his body. And that he is about to lay his body aside and depart from it. The soul does not sleep. It is the body only, that is described as sleeping because a dead body looks as though it is asleep.
[quote]
The only place in the entire Bible where we have the 2 compartment scenario, which contradictshundreds of other verses about the afterlife, is in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Parables were meant to conceal information. And, boy, has it!!
[quote]
The Bible only has to say a thing once for it to be true.
Jesus told the thief that on that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Acts 2:27,31 shows that Jesus went to Hades. As does Ephesians 4:9.
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Scofield, not the Bible. Scofield was a very confused man. Either that, or he was up to no good. I try to always think the best of people, though, so I'm going to go with misguided individual.
Your attacking Scofield again, which again shows a lack of integrity on your part. And scofield has absolutely nothing to do with Revelation 6:9-11. As the passage clearly shows, the souls of the tribulational martyrs are in heaven. Scofield didn't write Revelation 6:9-11.
Originally Posted by Mike555
We can see from Revelation 6:9-11, that the tribulational martyrs are in heaven and are awaiting God's judgment on those who had killed them.
Revelation 6:9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sayng, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'' 11] And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been should be completed also.
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People will be judged at the throne, and those still in the dark will be tormented by the presence of the lamb? Do you know why?You really have to start thinking about these things on your own. It's getting late.
It is you who had better start to think. And learn. You have no idea how foolish you sound trying to act like you know what your talking about.
Revelation 14:9-11 gives the reason why, so why do you ask me if I know the reason? And Revelation 14:10 does not contradict 2 Thess 1:9 which says that 'these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power.
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You are in complete agreement with other men whom you idolize, not God, Mike.
Watch your mouth lady. I do not idolize any man. You exhibit the same lack of integrity as the rest of the universalists in making your accusations. Keep your accusations to yourself.
Despicable means to achieve laudable goals, renders them contemptible, even, though the eyes may see; the mind will not believe.
'He who believes the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath (displeasure) of God abides on him.' (John 3:36)
Mike, you should at least try to understand what this truly means, as you tarry in the condition and attitude of unbelief:
"This is my son, in whom I am well-pleased."
I understand fully what the passage means. You had better take your own advice and learn what it means.
It means that if you reject Christ as Savior, you are going to spend the eternal future in the lake of fire. As many of you universalists are going to find out first hand.
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