Jesus is Firstborn of EVERY CREATURE (Col.1:15) (testimony, Messiah, sin)

[Eusebius]

HotinAZ, I'm through with you and your games. God is going to reconcile all in the heavens and earth (Col.1:20) and Christ is Firstborn of every creature (Col.1:15).

The believer is ALSO groaning along with the rest of creation in Romans 8:23:
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."

So it is not just believers who you think are the creation.

You are just disqualified as to the faith. It is fruitless to carry this on with you.

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Really? And why is this? Because you say so? Let us look at them.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Now, WHO is awaiting the revealing? EVERYONE? Or just those who are IN Christ now, which would be HIS Kingdom? Established! Hense, then that word creation is used of His people:

the act of founding, establishing, building etc

Who?


But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Back to Romans now:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope?? that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

What is there to hope for, if this is applying to everyone? Doesn't even make sense, does it. This makes God sound awful wishy-washy.



For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Who is groaning? Who is suffering, like the pains of childbirth? Who is being tested to the point of pain?

See, your doctrine doesn't make ANY sense to me. This passage is applying to those awaiting their King. These people are persecuted, tortured, and killed. They are tried, though as through fire, and ALL this is the refining process.

It says the WHOLE CREATION, but we all know, who have any sensibility, that the WHOLE CREATION is not suffering. We know those who are perfectly happy living in the flesh, bowing the knee to THEIR GODS, and not the King of kings.



Definition= 1) anxious and persistent expectation

Is this a premonition, or rather a longing? See what I mean. Do the study.



We all know what the definition of vanity is. Is this the definition?

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness
2) perverseness, depravity
3) frailty, want of vigour

Comon brother. We all know the people are devoid of Truth, and we know we must seek it. Those who are devoid of Truth cannot be considered as intellegent now, can they. It would be 'vain' to think otherwise.



Never said God was going to free this stuff. Your made up definition says creation, andso you must now justify it,,not me. I know what it means, and it isn't talking about ALL creation, it is talking about His Kingdom, and those seeking entrance into it. His world-system, His kosmos. See, I don't have to make silly stuff up to justify my Truths. You do.



Isn't this like the pot calling the kettle black. These silly definitions you speak of, are there as plain as day. The topic is, and ALWAYS has been about His Son, and His Kingdom. Not you. You may be adopted, which is what you should be longing for, travailing for, suffering for.



Of course it would seem silly to you. You do not see it, nor seek to understand it.

"I also shall make him MY FIRSTBORN, The highest of the kings of the earth. My lovingkindness I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall be confirmed to him. So I will establish his descendants forever And his throne as the days of heaven."


Does this sound like anything other than a Kingdom doctrine? AND DOES THIS SOUND SILLY TO YOU?

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

HotinAZ, I'm through with you and your games.

I am sure Satan felt the same way in dealing with Jesus. He also 'tried' using the Word contrary to the Truth.

God is going to reconcile all in the heavens and earth (Col.1:20) and Christ is Firstborn of every creature (Col.1:15).

Not denying this, except your failed interpretation of it.

The believer is ALSO groaning along with the rest of creation in Romans 8:23:
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."

Groaning for the death of the flesh,,,but not anything else. Are you groaning for something else? I am not.

So it is not just believers who you think are the creation.

Lol, yea it is. And actually not just believers, but those awaiting redemption of the spirit.

You are just disqualified as to the faith.

Perhaps the faith in your false doctrine. No need to dispute that as it is nonsense,

It is fruitless to carry this on with you.

And me with you. You act like a teacher without any knowledge to teach. Perhaps going back to school and learn something else besides a heresy.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

I think you're partially correct here (the doctrine of your Presbyterian upbringing)...LOL

But not fully correct. Yes, Paul is speaking of those who experience that covenant relationship now (present tense), but Paul does not limit it to those who are partaking of it now in verse 23. Paul also includes those who will (future tense) experience their covenant relationship to God in the future. And Paul tells us in verse 21 that all creation, all mankind will experience that covenant relationship in time, even those who are, for the present, being denied it's benefits through experience (first-fruit):

2Ti 2:12 if we do endure together--we shall also reign together; if we deny him , he also shall deny us;
2Ti 2:13 if we are not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.

But is that the end of the faithless who do not experience the first-fruit? God forbid!

Rom 3:3 for what, if certain were faithless? shall their faithlessness the faithfulness of god make useless?

Rom 3:9 What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin,

So then, does this change the faith of Christ towards those who are not of the household of faith? NO! The faith of Christ is to all, but as yet, only upon those who believe (present tense):

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

But yet, there is no difference between the two concerning the faith of Christ! In time, all will experience the righteousness of God through Christ's faithfulness. All will believe, in time. All will enter into that Covenant, by the faithfulness of Christ. And praise God for it!

So you ascribe to a shiny new planet...that is creation where everyone is holding hands singing Kumbaya? Either kitsis is the person, or it is the material order of creation....one or the other. Also you have said.... all mankind will experience that covenant relationship in time

This can only be evident and a reality upon acceptance of Christ as the propitation for their atonement. In that I believe you agree, however, what you are incorrect at is.....that all will believe. It says that nowhere.

All - those in covenatal relationship with God either through the old covenant or those who believe on Christ, then/now and in the future.
Not all people, everywhere.
He is specifically targeting a people, separated from the rest of humankind.

[Eusebius]

Dear God, please deliver HotinAz from the deception Satan has put him into. I ask this in the name of Jesus Christ.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Dear God, please deliver HotinAz from the deception Satan has put him into. I ask this in the name of Jesus Christ.

ty for the kind post, if it was sincere. i do not to walk in deception, which is why i walked away from UR.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

So you ascribe to a shiny new planet...that is creation where everyone is holding hands singing Kumbaya?

I'm actually Amill, just like you should be...lol But that's another matter.

Either kitsis is the person, or it is the material order of creation....one or the other. Also you have said.... all mankind will experience that covenant relationship in time

In the scriptures we are discussing, κτίσις (ktisis) is emphasizing the creation of man, all mankind.

Now, we need to go back to Genesis to discover what God would do for all mankind after the fall, whom were being represented at that time by Adam and Eve:

Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.

That covering of skin over Adam and Eve was a foreshadow of those whom God would enter into Covenant with through the blood of Christ. Adam and Eve represented all mankind, as Paul tells us here:

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

This can only be evident and a reality upon acceptance of Christ as the propitation for their atonement. In that I believe you agree, however, what you are incorrect at is.....that all will believe. It says that nowhere.

Christ IS the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

The propitiation for our sins is NOT contingent upon us (the sinner) for whom it is made or by anything we do, our faith therein notwithstanding. But rather it is contingent ONLY on the agreement between the One who sacrificed Himself (Jesus) and the One who accepted the guilt offering (God His Father). That IS what appeased God and it is the ONLY thing that justifies us before God.

Those for whom the propitiation was made (all mankind), will in time come to faith. That propitiation of Jesus also purchased that right to bring all mankind to life in the Spirit. It will happen my friend. Mainline Christianity, just will not believe it. They are faithless. They do not believe in "Him who justifies the ungodly".

All - those in covenatal relationship with God either through the old covenant or those who believe on Christ, then/now and in the future.
Not all people, everywhere.
He is specifically targeting a people, separated from the rest of humankind.

You're right, He targeted a specific group. Jesus tells us that here:

Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.'

Paul tells us what Jesus did for them:

Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

And Paul tells us what God is now doing (present tense) because of what Jesus did:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

That is who God targeted. The ungodly, the impious ones whom God IS (present tense) declaring righteous, on the merits of Christ alone.

And who are the ungodly ones? All mankind:

Rom 3:10 according as it hath been written--`There is none righteous, not even one;

And what will be the final outcome of those (all mankind) for whom Jesus died? Paul tells us here:

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

Jesus purchased the right to save all mankind. And He, being Jehovah God, will do it.

[sciotamicks]

Alabama,

Adam is proto Israel, not the biological father of mankind. Read the text...Gen 3-5.
He is the federal head of Israel. No Universalism in him. Everyone did not suffer death in their spirit because of him, only those bound to the law....Acts 17 and Romans 5......BTW the traditional views of final things (eschatology) say the church will give way to the kingdom (premillennialism) or Christ will give up his throne at the end of time (amillennialism). Both views teach that the church is an interim measure until the "real" blessings of God come. Since the Bible teaches that the church, established among men to be a teaching, evangelizing organization, is to have NO END, then any view that speaks of the end of the church age contradicts the scripture!

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Alabama,

Adam is proto Israel, not the biological father of mankind. Read the text...Gen 3-5.
He is the federal head of Israel. No Universalism in him. Everyone did not suffer death in their spirit because of him, only those bound to the law....Acts 17 and Romans 5......BTW the traditional views of final things (eschatology) say the church will give way to the kingdom (premillennialism) or Christ will give up his throne at the end of time (amillennialism). Both views teach that the church is an interim measure until the "real" blessings of God come. Since the Bible teaches that the church, established among men to be a teaching, evangelizing organization, is to have NO END, then any view that speaks of the end of the church age contradicts the scripture!

Sciota -

I'm right, you're wrong. Please read Genesis to Revelation...LOL

My friend, you'll need to be more specific with your scripture references if we are to discuss the merits of a particular doctrine, OK?

PS: Are you actually contending here for the two seed-line Gnostic theory?

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Sciota -

I'm right, you're wrong. Please read Genesis to Revelation...LOL

My friend, you'll need to be more specific with your scripture references if we are to discuss the merits of a particular doctrine, OK?

PS: Are you actually contending here for the two seed-line Gnostic theory?

LOL Alabama...no you are not right, as your paradigm has skewed your entire outlook on the scripture, and you have done much damage to it, as you liberally remove its themes from their very context.

What you UR people fail to realize that this is a covenant, beginning with Adam, not the first biological humanoid to walk the earth, but was removed from the world of beasts and brought into the garden of Eden to have fellowship with God. Read that....removed from the WORLD, that very world you live in today, as Cain's wife lived in, and those whom he feared once he was banished for killing his brother lived in. THe world apart from the Garden, the covenant with God. That peculiar line..those who called on the name of the Lord, those who fell into wickedness and were destroyed in the flood...these were all from Adam's third born Seth, born after Cain was banished. Read the text....Gen 3-5 as I asked you, and you will see the discrepancy in your veiw, as with many young, gap, framework views of creation and Adam. Adam is the first covenantal man brought into a relationship with God, and through him was created Israel, and through Israel, was consummated in Christ, for those to enter into covenant. Mankind was not saved automatically. His people were saved. Mankind was given a salvific covenant that gives him life through Christ. God so loved the KOSMOS...the covenant He had with Adam, and through Christ He gave His only Son...so that those who believe on Him will inherit eternal life. Christ is the propitation. We are atoned by our belief in Him. The covenant was restored with GOD's Peculiar People. Now they can have life, not death. Now they can have that garden back, the fruit from the tree of life, APART from the world. This is all specifically consistent with the scriptures. From Genesis to Revelation, and it isn't about a shiny new planet with Christians running around saved singing kumbaya..this is about a spiritual relationship restored with God. That's it.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

LOL Alabama...no you are not right, as your paradigm has skewed your entire outlook on the scripture, and you have done much damage to it, as you liberally remove its themes from their very context.

What you UR people fail to realize that this is a covenant, beginning with Adam, not the first biological humanoid to walk the earth, but was removed from the world of beasts and brought into the garden of Eden to have fellowship with God. Read that....removed from the WORLD, that very world you live in today, as Cain's wife lived in, and those whom he feared once he was banished for killing his brother lived in. THe world apart from the Garden, the covenant with God. That peculiar line..those who called on the name of the Lord, those who fell into wickedness and were destroyed in the flood...these were all from Adam's third born Seth, born after Cain was banished. Read the text....Gen 3-5 as I asked you, and you will see the discrepancy in your veiw, as with many young, gap, framework views of creation and Adam. Adam is the first covenantal man brought into a relationship with God, and through him was created Israel, and through Israel, was consummated in Christ, for those to enter into covenant. Mankind was not saved automatically. His people were saved. Mankind was given a salvific covenant that gives him life through Christ. God so loved the KOSMOS...the covenant He had with Adam, and through Christ He gave His only Son...so that those who believe on Him will inherit eternal life. Christ is the propitation. We are atoned by our belief in Him. The covenant was restored with GOD's Peculiar People. Now they can have life, not death. Now they can have that garden back, the fruit from the tree of life, APART from the world. This is all specifically consistent with the scriptures. From Genesis to Revelation, and it isn't about a shiny new planet with Christians running around saved singing kumbaya..this is about a spiritual relationship restored with God. That's it.

Wow, great post!! I am so glad you SEE this. Another person has been awakened by the Spirit!!

I am going to copy parts of it for future reference if that is alright with you.