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universalism doesn't not threaten true Christianity or biblical faith, however it threatens the power of the clergy, of those who make much money in a selfish manner with the fear of hell and the promise of paradise
for 1000 years, "traditional Christendom" was Catholicism, I think most protestants would agree that it is from the devil while Catholics consider Martin Luther e.g. a heretic.
what many people consider "traditional Christendom" might very well be the heresy itself
Hey svenM...always respected your comments, however, although I do agree with your summation above, there are various forms of Universalism that threaten the possibility of one's salvation...i.e...apokastasis...wherein I disagree strongly...other than that, many of the themes, if not all, are the same, just nature and timing where they differ.
universalism doesn't not threaten true Christianity or biblical faith, however it threatens the power of the clergy, of those who make much money in a selfish manner with the fear of hell and the promise of paradise
for 1000 years, "traditional Christendom" was Catholicism, I think most protestants would agree that it is from the devil while Catholics consider Martin Luther e.g. a heretic.
what many people consider "traditional Christendom" might very well be the heresy itself
Universalism does not agree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. And true Christianity will never accept such a false belief. Jesus Christ Himself teaches us that not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And true followers of Jesus will believe His words. And those who embrace heresy, are those who reject Christ own teachings.
Universalism does not agree with the teachings of Jesus Christ. And true Christianity will never accept such a false belief. Jesus Christ Himself teaches us that not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And true followers of Jesus will believe His words. And those who embrace heresy, are those who reject Christ own teachings.
Dear Campbell34,
Just a heads up on the "not enter the kingdom of heaven" idea.
That "kingdom of heaven" which in Greek "heaven" is actually plural and should be "kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew 7:21. It is not the kingdom in heaven. Jesus is not saying those people will not go to heaven.
The kingdom of the heavens is the kingdom He will be setting up on the earth for the 1000 year millenial reign. They will not be allowed in that kingdom.
Actually, if you reject the teaching that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all per 1 Timothy 2:4-6 you are in fact the one rejecting Christ's own teachings because He is the One Who gave this teaching to Paul and Paul is the apostle of the nations.
And quit accusing God of teaching heresy. It gets old. He and Jesus Christ told us to specifically teach these things (1 Timothy 4:10,11).
Dear Campbell34,
Just a heads up on the "not enter the kingdom of heaven" idea.
That "kingdom of heaven" which in Greek "heaven" is actually plural and should be "kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew 7:21. It is not the kingdom in heaven. Jesus is not saying those people will not go to heaven.
The kingdom of the heavens is the kingdom He will be setting up on the earth for the 1000 year millenial reign. They will not be allowed in that kingdom.
Actually, if you reject the teaching that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all per 1 Timothy 2:4-6 you are in fact the one rejecting Christ's own teachings because He is the One Who gave this teaching to Paul and Paul is the apostle of the nations.
And quit accusing God of teaching heresy. It gets old. He and Jesus Christ told us to specifically teach these things (1 Timothy 4:10,11).
That quote came from Matthew 7:21 Eusebius. And this is happening during the time of God's White Throne Judgement. Which is after God's 1000 year millenial reign. I have not accused God of heresy. I am saying people who ignore the clear teachings of the Bible are pushing heresy, not God.
I agree with 1 Tim. 4:10,11 that Jesus is the Saviour of all men. Yet all men do not accept Him as their Saviour. This verse does not mean that all men will be saved. And that belief contradicts the vast majority of teachings on the saved and the lost that Jesus speaks of. Here again, I see someone taking another verse out of context while ignoring the vast body of Scripture.
Last edited by Campbell34; 03-04-2011 at 05:37 PM..
That quote came from Matthew 7:21 Eusebius. And this is happening during the time of God's White Throne Judgement. Which is after God's 1000 year millenial reign. I have not accused God of heresy. I am saying people who ignore the clear teachings of the Bible are pushing heresy, not God.
Dear Campbell,
Even if you say it is said during the Great White Throne (which is isn't but let's just for the sake or argument say your take is correct) that those who say "Lord, Lord" to Jesus will not enter the kingdom of the heavens, that kingdom is still on the earth after the great white throne. The New City Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth (Rev.21:10). So during that age they will not be allowed into the kingdom of the heavens He is setting up on the new earth.
It does not say they never go to heaven.
You are in fact accusing God of teaching heresy when you say it is heresy to teach that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all and teach that "God is the Saviour of all mankind . . . these things command and teach" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11).
You can't say God tells us in those verses we are to teach that "God will not save all mankind because Christ ransomed all" or teach that "God is not the Saviour of all mankind."
A Saviour is One Who saves, not just offers salvation.
Just the fact that you say "not all will be saved" you are in fact accusing God of telling us to teach heresy.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10 does not say "God will save all mankind only if they make the right choice" or that "God is the Saviour of all mankind as long as all mankind make the right choice.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 does tell us that God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind. It is based upon what Christ did, not what man chooses.
It may be "just your opinion" as you say, but I liked it a lot!
In particular, you said this:
"I still maintain my position that if a person seeks out LOVE and does what they can to put love into this world and to love their neighbor, even if they were atheist, I see them as ironically being closer to God then those who confess to believe in God (love) yet their actions and their heart are far from it."
Now I have said similar things, which were met with "our righteousness is filthy menstrual rags" and such.
Rags or not, I really don't care. God is Love, and he who dwells in Love dwells in God.
Want spirituality? Learn to Love. Ask God for help. Learn to see that anything that is not good, is not God's Kingdom. Period.
You can believe that Jerusalem is God's land. But if you have to kill people in order to make it holy, there's something wrong. Period.
The fruits of the Spirit are clear: love, joy, peace, longsuffering (patience), kindness, gentleness, meekness, self-control, faith.
Got Jesus? Get fruits! HIS Fruits, which no man can gainsay!
Praise God!! Let's all learn to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY!!
Blessings sparrow! And sorry for my ranting again..
Brian
For a "rant" that was very uplifting, bro!
Now this:
Quote:
Now I have said similar things, which were met with "our righteousness is filthy menstrual rags" and such.
That phrase has been tossed around so much. Things that are done without love are the things that are as "dirty rags". An atheist who out of the love and compassion in his heart helps a poverty stricken family get back on it's feet because that atheist genuinely cares about his neighbor's well being. That is NOT, absolutely NOT a "dirty rag". God forbid.
Now take that same family being helped by someone else, and let's say this person is thinking to theirself about all the "rewards" they'll get in heaven for helping this poor family. When something is done NOT in love, then it is a "filthy rag". When your motives aren't love... but selfishness, etc. then it is a "filthy rag".
God is love. When we lean into LOVE, we are leaning into the Creator.
Some folks think they're leaning into the Creator and they're not at all. They're leaning into theirself. While others who THINK they're leaning into theirself are actually leaning into the Creator.
God is awesome, man.
It's really not so difficult. But we make it difficult and convoluted and all kinds of bizarre.
What all of us are here to cultivate is LOVE.
period.
Flesh seeks flesh. The kingdom is already here, but you fail to see it Eusebius. Why?
The kingdom I am speaking of, which Jesus spoke of, was the one in which the 12 will physically sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel ON THE EARTH. That kingdom has not come yet. That is why I don't see it yet.
It happens when people don't listen to the Holy Spirit and interpret the Bible to suit their personal likes and dislikes.
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