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To answer the OP, I would say facing God might be like Him asking in Luke 9:20, "Who do you say that I am?"
ET's answer is, "You are God, maker of heaven and earth, who eternally tortures the ones You created who didn't believe in Jesus or do the right things (depending on your denomination.)
And UR's answer is, "You are God, maker of Heaven and earth, who sent Jesus to save all mankind by his death, burial and resurrection."
Do you honestly think God will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you, Frank, but alas someone told you that I am Love and that my Son died for the sins of all mankind, and for that reason you thought you were safe, so since YOU BELIEVED this message of redemption and you thought you were safe, I will now toss you into the pit and set you on fire forever."
Or, on the other hand, do you think He will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you Frank, so I'm so glad that someone scared the voodoo out of you by telling you that I planned to set you on fire if you didn't believe in Me. I'm glad you had faith that I would do that."
Do you see the error of your question? IF UR taught someone that God will eventually save all mankind because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and someone DID BELIEVE that, then they are a believer in Jesus Christ and God's grace! Threatening them will eternal misery does not make them all of a sudden become a believer in God's grace.
I don't know what your beliefs are, but if you are in the camp of "Christ alone-faith alone-grace alone" / "There's nothing you can add to your salvation," then there's nothing for you to worry about concerning UR spreading the good news. If you want to say, but.....they didn't do this ......or they didn't say that.......or they didn't know this or that......then you are ADDING to grace! UR is the purest form of grace being taught. 100% JESUS on the cross! Not 50% Jesus' death and 50% what you believe, or even 99/1. It's all about Jesus. If someone believes UR, they believe totally in "There's nothing you can add to your salvation."
If UR turned out not to be true, then we have preached God's love and 100% grace, and God will tell us we should have taught people that there is SOMETHING they must do to help save themselves. He will say we really didn’t know Him because we gave Him too much credit for love and mercy (like sparrow said). He will then explain to us that even though the Bible taught "you reap what you sow," what He really meant by that was that if you "sow" disbelief in Jesus, you will "reap" eternal torture.
If ET turned out not to be true, God will probably say that you never knew Him because you thought His character included torturing the people He knit together in the womb. He will then explain that even though the Bible made it clear that perfect loves casts out fear, that you continued to scare people with threats of unimaginable suffering. And since you reap what you sow.....who knows? If they have "sown" fear, they might just "reap" fear.
I hardly ever come here but wanted to comment of the fire insurance versus the relationship myth as that is what it is.
Your apparent salvation has to be from hell or else what is it you are saved from?
The concept of a relationship with a god that you cannot see is an oxymoron as relationships are a two way street.
In my search for truth, neither ET not UR had answers. Both are flawed doctrines and both camps argue amongst themselves.
I started off in the ET camp, hell was not my motivation but it was made clear what we were saved from - hell.
The hell doctrine plays a far more important role than any of the more pleasant stuff and at the end of the day, because so many doctrines can be derived from the exact same book, that alone leaves reasonable doubt.
Any relationship you perceive to be real is due to your church attendance and fellowship of like minded people.
I never was a pew warmer and got totally involved with the program, bible studies etc. etc. I was even more diligent, had oodles of time on my hands in a job that gave me much time to study my bible, hence my knowledge was far higher than most. I didn't just read, I made notes, cross referenced, wrote journals and this all before the internet.
Other than my BA experience, nothing else lasted or seemed real and I wondered why. Maybe I was just too logical to simply accept but I did try all the recipes I was offered.
The reality struck home when in sadness I had to step down from my ministry to care 24/7 for my xian dad who had Alzheimer's. In 7 months, neither his ministers nor mine made and effort to pop in and see how it was going in spite of calling out to god for him to send someone. After his death, I was in the UR camp for awhile but then my worldview was seen as too liberal.
I held on for as long as I could but now I am happy to be free of the guilt and worthlessness that was ingrained into me as a believer.
I held on for as long as I could but now I am happy to be free of the guilt and worthlessness that was ingrained into me as a believer.
FWIW
That's so sad. They should have come by and checked on your dad. I've had similar experiences. I'm sorry you have come to that conclusion, and I wish you would give God another chance. Maybe He was using that experience of not answering your prayer to make you see that His grace is sufficient to see you through the hard times, even without other people stepping in. Maybe the freedom you feel is actually God's peace telling you that He gave you strength and peace to face each day, and that you made it.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 03-18-2011 at 12:36 PM..
I hardly ever come here but wanted to comment of the fire insurance versus the relationship myth as that is what it is.
Your apparent salvation has to be from hell or else what is it you are saved from?
The concept of a relationship with a god that you cannot see is an oxymoron as relationships are a two way street.
In my search for truth, neither ET not UR had answers. Both are flawed doctrines and both camps argue amongst themselves.
I started off in the ET camp, hell was not my motivation but it was made clear what we were saved from - hell.
The hell doctrine plays a far more important role than any of the more pleasant stuff and at the end of the day, because so many doctrines can be derived from the exact same book, that alone leaves reasonable doubt.
Any relationship you perceive to be real is due to your church attendance and fellowship of like minded people.
I never was a pew warmer and got totally involved with the program, bible studies etc. etc. I was even more diligent, had oodles of time on my hands in a job that gave me much time to study my bible, hence my knowledge was far higher than most. I didn't just read, I made notes, cross referenced, wrote journals and this all before the internet.
Other than my BA experience, nothing else lasted or seemed real and I wondered why. Maybe I was just too logical to simply accept but I did try all the recipes I was offered.
The reality struck home when in sadness I had to step down from my ministry to care 24/7 for my xian dad who had Alzheimer's. In 7 months, neither his ministers nor mine made and effort to pop in and see how it was going in spite of calling out to god for him to send someone. After his death, I was in the UR camp for awhile but then my worldview was seen as too liberal.
I held on for as long as I could but now I am happy to be free of the guilt and worthlessness that was ingrained into me as a believer.
FWIW
FWIW, God is still there for YOU and always will be..... I believe this with all my heart !!!
God bless you, SeekerSA,
(aka curly)
IMHO there is some reasonableness to the idea that a creator being created the universe.
There is no reasonableness to the idea that the number 23 controls everything.
And IMHO there is also no reasonableness that the universe just popped into existence or always existed. (yes I've read about quantum theory) And so the debate continues...
Legoman -
I'm giving you 23 virtual Reps because all your posts in this thread are truly awesome and have made my day. Thank you for taking the time to be so "right on" here in public today I've been struggling with sadness over the devastation visited on my brothers/sisters in Japan this past week and needed something to lighten my heart.
To answer the OP, I would say facing God might be like Him asking in Luke 9:20, "Who do you say that I am?"
ET's answer is, "You are God, maker of heaven and earth, who eternally tortures the ones You created who didn't believe in Jesus or do the right things (depending on your denomination.)
And UR's answer is, "You are God, maker of Heaven and earth, who sent Jesus to save all mankind by his death, burial and resurrection."
Do you honestly think God will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you, Frank, but alas someone told you that I am Love and that my Son died for the sins of all mankind, and for that reason you thought you were safe, so since YOU BELIEVED this message of redemption and you thought you were safe, I will now toss you into the pit and set you on fire forever."
Or, on the other hand, do you think He will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you Frank, so I'm so glad that someone scared the voodoo out of you by telling you that I planned to set you on fire if you didn't believe in Me. I'm glad you had faith that I would do that."
Do you see the error of your question? IF UR taught someone that God will eventually save all mankind because of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and someone DID BELIEVE that, then they are a believer in Jesus Christ and God's grace! Threatening them will eternal misery does not make them all of a sudden become a believer in God's grace.
I don't know what your beliefs are, but if you are in the camp of "Christ alone-faith alone-grace alone" / "There's nothing you can add to your salvation," then there's nothing for you to worry about concerning UR spreading the good news. If you want to say, but.....they didn't do this ......or they didn't say that.......or they didn't know this or that......then you are ADDING to grace! UR is the purest form of grace being taught. 100% JESUS on the cross! Not 50% Jesus' death and 50% what you believe, or even 99/1. It's all about Jesus. If someone believes UR, they believe totally in "There's nothing you can add to your salvation."
If UR turned out not to be true, then we have preached God's love and 100% grace, and God will tell us we should have taught people that there is SOMETHING they must do to help save themselves. He will say we really didn’t know Him because we gave Him too much credit for love and mercy (like sparrow said). He will then explain to us that even though the Bible taught "you reap what you sow," what He really meant by that was that if you "sow" disbelief in Jesus, you will "reap" eternal torture.
If ET turned out not to be true, God will probably say that you never knew Him because you thought His character included torturing the people He knit together in the womb. He will then explain that even though the Bible made it clear that perfect loves casts out fear, that you continued to scare people with threats of unimaginable suffering. And since you reap what you sow.....who knows? If they have "sown" fear, they might just "reap" fear.
Another brilliant post in this thread. I thank God for you BrightHopeforTomorrow. I feel very priviledged to have access to just a few people who truly understand and spread God's grace and love in a very troubled world. Bless you.
I'm giving you 23 virtual Reps because all your posts in this thread are truly awesome and have made my day. Thank you for taking the time to be so "right on" here in public today I've been struggling with sadness over the devastation visited on my brothers/sisters in Japan this past week and needed something to lighten my heart.
Peace -
Heartsong
Thanks Heartsong
I hear what you are saying. There is much suffering that people are going through (and have been for thousands of years). At least we can try to give people hope.
Check out this video if you have a moment (or about 90 minutes!), I just watched it the other day and it helps to give a bit of perspective in the vastness of it all:
Another brilliant post in this thread. I thank God for you BrightHopeforTomorrow. I feel very priviledged to have access to just a few people who truly understand and spread God's grace and love in a very troubled world. Bless you.
Do you honestly think God will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you, Frank, but alas someone told you that I am Love and that my Son died for the sins of all mankind, and for that reason you thought you were safe, so since YOU BELIEVED this message of redemption and you thought you were safe, I will now toss you into the pit and set you on fire forever."
Or, on the other hand, do you think He will be up there saying, "I really wanted to save you Frank, so I'm so glad that someone scared the voodoo out of you by telling you that I planned to set you on fire if you didn't believe in Me. I'm glad you had faith that I would do that."
This really hits to the point. Well said!
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I'm sorry you have come to that conclusion, and I wish you would give God another chance. Maybe He was using that experience of not answering your prayer to make you see that His grace is sufficient to see you through the hard times, even without other people stepping in. Maybe the freedom you feel is actually God's peace telling you that He gave you strength and peace to face each day, and that you made it.
