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There are many studies about this topic. I would suggest (I say that respectfully) that you read more than one. I did, and I was amazed at what I learned.
One of the things you may have missed is that there are earlier writings than the two manuscripts in question that make reference to Mark 16:16. That proves the validity of the passage.
I also learned, from several different studies, that blank spaces were left in the places where the ending of Mark's gospel would have been written. There are various speculations as to the reasons why.
You may have also missed the fact that many scriptures were left out of these two manuscripts, one being the thousand year reign of Christ, another being when the soldiers pierced Jesus' side. As a matter of fact, many scriptures were missing from these 2 out of 500 manuscripts. Notice, I said 2/500. But of course, you folks who don't believe in baptism for salvation will hang your hats on those two manuscripts.
I have no reason to doubt Mark 16;16 are the words of Jesus. I say that because so many other verses support it. The great commission of Matthew 28:18-20, and then Peter carrying out the commission in Acts 2:38 is postitive proof for me.
I don't expect you to agree. I already know what you believe. You have to give an account of yourself, and I have to give an account of myself. It is by Jesus' words we will be judged.
I interpret the scriptures literally. I believe exactly what they say, in the word order they are in. Some people don't. That's their choice. They have to give an account of themselves also.
Katie
The current academic consensus has deemed Mark 16:9-20 to be a later addition. I know most modern “bible” translations, you will find notes that cast uncertainty upon Mark 16:9-20. There’s a . It's quite probable Mark 16:9-20 was not part of the original text, which makes it questionable that one, should base any doctrine on it.
It doesn't have to say it. The second part DOES NOT NEGATE the first part. You can spin it anyway you want to, but you'd better hope you're right. Personally, I believe Jesus when He says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." I also believe Him when He says we will be judged by His words.
The current academic consensus has deemed Mark 16:9-20 to be a later addition. I know most modern “bible” translations, you will find notes that cast uncertainty upon Mark 16:9-20. There’s a . It's quite probable Mark 16:9-20 was not part of the original text, which makes it questionable that one, should base any doctrine on it.
Even if the last 12 verses of Mark 16 were spurious, I would still believe what I believe about baptism based on the plethora of other passages in the New Testament the clearly link baptism with salvation. So, even if I didn't have Mark 16:16, it wouldn't change my belief one iota.
Apparently there is more to baptism that simply a Christian's first act of obedience to God. In the verses under discussion (Mark 16:15-16) Jesus Himself linked faith and baptism as equal co-conditions of salvation "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." It seems that whatever the relationship between belief and salvation the same relationship exists between baptism and salvation. At least in the mind of Christ, since He's the One who said it.
Maybe I am being a little dufus here, but didn't Jesus first say WHOEVER BELIEVES, then right after that IS BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED? That tells me that I have to have taken in some kind of knowledge of Him before I would decide with the Holy Spirit's guidance to become baptized.
In other words, I can't be baptized first then believe last. Something has to have happened in order for me to become baptized, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that your heart has to be changed first, in order to become baptized as an act of declaring obedience to Jesus and God, symbolically crucifying our old nature, and rising up a new creation in Christ.
I don't understand how you don't get it. Are you saying that Jesus is saying that it's mandatory to believe and become baptized in order to be saved? If you are saying that, I guess being saved by Grace isn't enough for you. What you are saying is that you have to work for your salvation by becoming baptized in order to be saved, and Paul clearly showed that we are saved by God's grace. Baptism does not make you a believer; it shows that you already are one! Baptism does not ‘save’ you; only your faith in Christ does that.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 Had he added baptism in that statement then I would agree with you that we are saved by Grace and baptism.
Maybe I am being a little dufus here, but didn't Jesus first say WHOEVER BELIEVES, then right after that IS BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED? That tells me that I have to have taken in some kind of knowledge of Him before I would decide with the Holy Spirit's guidance to become baptized.
In other words, I can't be baptized first then believe last. Something has to have happened in order for me to become baptized, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that your heart has to be changed first, in order to become baptized as an act of declaring obedience to Jesus and God, symbolically crucifying our old nature, and rising up a new creation in Christ.
I don't understand how you don't get it. Are you saying that Jesus is saying that it's mandatory to believe and become baptized in order to be saved? If you are saying that, I guess being saved by Grace isn't enough for you. What you are saying is that you have to work for your salvation by becoming baptized in order to be saved, and Paul clearly showed that we are saved by God's grace. Baptism does not make you a believer; it shows that you already are one! Baptism does not ‘save’ you; only your faith in Christ does that.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 Had he added baptism in that statement then I would agree with you that we are saved by Grace and baptism.
Hello Antredd,
I am saying that you must believe and be baptized (both) to be saved.
Here's where I think the problem lies with you understanding what it is I say.
Read all of Ephesians 2. Paul is talking to christians. Pay particular attention to verses 4-5. Notice Paul says God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our transgressions. It is by grace you have been saved. Paul is telling them HOW they were saved. They were save by grace.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Made us alive in Christ, and were dead in our transgressions begs a question. WHEN were we made alive in Christ, and WHEN were we freed from our sins?
Romans 6 tells us when. It is when we were baptized into Christ. Verse 4 tells us that "just as He was raised from the dead, we too may live a new life. Verse 7 tells us that anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Galatians 3 tells us that all who have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Grace is the HOW we are saved. Baptism is the WHEN we are saved.
Can you show me any other scriptures that tell us when we are made alive in Christ, or when we put on Christ, or when we clothe ourselves with Christ?
Galatians 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 6: 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
I agree with you that one must believe before they are baptized, otherwise they would just be getting wet. However, that does not mean one is saved before they are baptized, especially since the scriptures so clearly tell us that the only way to be made alive in Christ is through baptism.
Maybe I am being a little dufus here, but didn't Jesus first say WHOEVER BELIEVES, then right after that IS BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED? That tells me that I have to have taken in some kind of knowledge of Him before I would decide with the Holy Spirit's guidance to become baptized.
In other words, I can't be baptized first then believe last. Something has to have happened in order for me to become baptized, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that your heart has to be changed first, in order to become baptized as an act of declaring obedience to Jesus and God, symbolically crucifying our old nature, and rising up a new creation in Christ.
I agree that one must believe first before they are baptized. However, I don't see where that means the they are saved by belief alone.
Quote:
I don't understand how you don't get it. Are you saying that Jesus is saying that it's mandatory to believe and become baptized in order to be saved? If you are saying that, I guess being saved by Grace isn't enough for you. What you are saying is that you have to work for your salvation by becoming baptized in order to be saved, and Paul clearly showed that we are saved by God's grace. Baptism does not make you a believer; it shows that you already are one! Baptism does not ‘save’ you; only your faith in Christ does that.
Yes, I am saying that Jesus says it's mandatory to believe and be baptized in order to be saved. This says nothing at all about the grace of God.
I am not saying that we have to work for our salvation. Baptism is in no way, shape, or form a work.
We are certainly saved by God's grace and by His grace alone. Yes, it's true that baptism does not make one a believer. I also agree that baptism does not save one. But I also think that it is not our faith that saves us either. Only God can save a person and He does that by grace. We are not saved by baptism, we are saved at baptism.
Quote:
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9 Had he added baptism in that statement then I would agree with you that we are saved by Grace and baptism.
He didn't need to add baptism in this statement because he was writing to Christians who would have understood that baptism cannot be left out.
I am saying that you must believe and be baptized (both) to be saved.
Here's where I think the problem lies with you understanding what it is I say.
Read all of Ephesians 2. Paul is talking to christians. Pay particular attention to verses 4-5. Notice Paul says God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our transgressions. It is by grace you have been saved. Paul is telling them HOW they were saved. They were save by grace.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Made us alive in Christ, and were dead in our transgressions begs a question. WHEN were we made alive in Christ, and WHEN were we freed from our sins?
Romans 6 tells us when. It is when we were baptized into Christ. Verse 4 tells us that "just as He was raised from the dead, we too may live a new life. Verse 7 tells us that anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Galatians 3 tells us that all who have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Grace is the HOW we are saved. Baptism is the WHEN we are saved.
Can you show me any other scriptures that tell us when we are made alive in Christ, or when we put on Christ, or when we clothe ourselves with Christ?
Galatians 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 6: 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
I agree with you that one must believe before they are baptized, otherwise they would just be getting wet. However, that does not mean one is saved before they are baptized, especially since the scriptures so clearly tell us that the only way to be made alive in Christ is through baptism.
Katie
Hi Katie...
..."baptized into Christ", is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost...the NEW BIRTH...indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ...and it does not happen with a raised hand...and a repeat after me, and "I'm so happy" sort of thing...no...not even being emersed in water. It means "putting on Christ". Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." That is, they have put on his sentiments, opinions, characteristic traits, etc., as a man clothes himself. This language was common among the ancient writers; see Romans 13:14, which states, But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. In our baptism we put on Christ; therein we profess our discipleship to him, and are obliged to behave ourselves as his faithful servants. Being baptized into Christ, we are baptized into his death, that as he died and rose again, so, in conformity thereunto, we should die unto sin, and walk in newness of life... see Rom. 6:3, 4: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Being baptized into Christ, we are baptized into his death, that as he died and rose again, so we should die unto sin, and walk in newness and holiness of life. The putting on of Christ according to the gospel, consists not in outward imitation, but in a new birth, an entire change.
But no outward forms or profession can secure these blessings; for if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.
1 Corinthians 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;...
...Men may enjoy many and great spiritual privileges in this world, and yet come short of eternal life. Many of those who were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and sea, that is, had their faith of his divine commission confirmed by these miracles, were yet overthrown in the wilderness, and never saw the promised land. Let none presume upon their great privileges, or profession of the truth; these will not secure heavenly happiness, nor prevent judgments here on earth, except the root of the matter be in us.
The "Once Saved Always Saved" believing group...and the "ALL! will be saved!" believing group...it just isn't the truth...not according to God's Word.
It doesn't have to say it. The second part DOES NOT NEGATE the first part. You can spin it anyway you want to, but you'd better hope you're right. Personally, I believe Jesus when He says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." I also believe Him when He says we will be judged by His words.
You are basing this belief solely on one Scripture. Are you saying that the rest of the Scriptures on how we are saved without baptism aren't relevant? I have read all of the Scriptures about how we are to be saved, and the overwhelming majority don't say you must believe and be baptized in order to be saved. But they all do teach that we must first believe, taking in some type of knowledge of God and Jesus, and then realize that we are a sinner in need of a savior.
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. It's quite probable Mark 16:9-20 was not part of the original text, which makes it questionable that one, should base any doctrine on it. 
