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Okay, here's my take on the passage. First, I take it literally word for word what it is saying.
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah,while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
1. Eight persons were brought safely through the water
2. Baptism corresponds to this
(this being the 8 brought safely through water).
3. Baptism saves you
4. Not as a removal of dirt from the body (not an outward cleansing)
5. Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience
6. the appeal of a good conscience is through the resurrection of Christ
7. Christ is now in heaven at the right hand of God
8. Angels, authorities, and powers are subjected to Him
Like I said, I take it literally, exactly the way it reads. I see no reason to take it any other way.
Does this include John's baptism? John's baptism was an ordinance of the law.
I don't think John's baptism was "an ordinance of the law." Are you saying that John's baptism was part of the Mosaic law? I don't think so. Can you show me a scripture that says that?
I believe those who were baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized because John't baptism could not give the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. The Holy Spirit wasn't given until Pentecost.
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Notice this.
Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered that they'd never even heard of the Holy Spirit.
So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
The Holy Spirit does not just come upon someone when they simply "believe."
Paul's comment shows that he understood the Holy Spirit comes when one believes and is baptized, otherwise why would he ask, "Then what baptism did you receive?" Do you see what I am saying here?
It is biblical . . . but not superstitious or magical as you believe. What is the internal "water of life" that proceeds from God to each of us who "overcome?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Everything I have written on this forum is from the scriptures. I don't view that as "magic." Those are your words.
What is garbage and not in the least Biblical is your "water on the brain" comment.
I have finally realized by now (after 2+ years on this forum) that fundies have no idea what they are talking about or why . . . and that their knowledge has nothing to do with reality . . . or how anything actually is achieved . . . but I will repeat the question for emphasis . . . so you can tell me what "non-magical answer" you believe in . . . or just ignore it again and run off saying . . . na,na,na,na,na . . . it's not biblical (even though there are many passages I have cited many times in my 9200+ posts here)
"What is the internal "water of life" that proceeds from God to each of us who "overcome?"
The requirement needed to be a member of the Church...the Bride of Christ, is to be filled with the Holy Ghost...Indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ...of which in whom no sin can will found on That Day of The LORD...he will be found without spot or blemish...blameless...He will cloth her with a pure white garment made with fine linen.
Water baptism does not make one spiritually clean ("...not putting away of the filth of the flesh"...), for many who are emersed in water go and continue to sin just as they did before their water emersion. It is meerly an act to show man the intentions.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way.
1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Blessings,
Verna.
Verna, You gave some excellent scriptures here, some I never would have thought to use. Thank you for that. I agree with so much of what you said.
You said, "Water baptism does not make one spiritually clean ("...not putting away of the filth of the flesh"...), for many who are emersed in water go and continue to sin just as they did before their water emersion. It is meerly an act to show man the intentions."
I agree that baptism itself does not cleanse one of their sins. You rightly pointed out that God saves us because of His mercy and through the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. It is very clear that God does the saving. He does the work, not us. So there is nothing that we can boast about.
However, you cannot be saved without baptism. God's mercy and grace is HOW we are saved. Baptism is WHEN we are saved. There is nothing magical in the water. It is strictly an act of submission to the will of God. He commanded belief and baptism. We obey.
Baptism is way more than just an act to show man's intentions. It's true, many people after being baptized continue to live in sin, and God will be their judge. Everyone sins, including the best intentioned christians. But praise the Lord, we know we can be forgiven because Jesus died for us.
So when we say baptism saves us, we understand that it is not the water, but the grace of God, which He gives to us WHEN we obey Him at baptism. This is when we are forgiven our sins and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
I have finally realized by now (after 2+ years on this forum) that fundies have no idea what they are talking about or why . . . and that their knowledge has nothing to do with reality . . . or how anything actually is achieved . . . but I will repeat the question for emphasis . . . so you can tell me what "non-magical answer" you believe in . . . or just ignore it again and run off saying . . . na,na,na,na,na . . . it's not biblical (even though there are many passages I have cited many times in my 9200+ posts here)
"What is the internal "water of life" that proceeds from God to each of us who "overcome?"
Sorry Mystic but I haven't seen all of your posts. As a matter of fact, I've only seen a few, and you always mention this water on the brain thing. I am only asking you to clarify it. Just point me to a scripture that says that. I am very familiar with the scriptures that talk about the water of life. I know what it means.
It would help me a whole lot if I knew what or where you are coming from. Are you scientologist? Universalist? I don't know why people on this forum don't identify what they are. It would sure make for easier conversations.
I have no problems saying that I am a member of the church of Christ.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'fundies." If you mean a person who believes in the Bible, every single word of it, then I guess that makes me one of them. I believe Jesus when He says we need to believe and be baptized. I believe Him when He says we need to repent or perish. I believe all of His commands, and I do my best to obey them. The Bible calls people like me christians. The name "fundie" is not Biblical.
Sorry Mystic but I haven't seen all of your posts. As a matter of fact, I've only seen a few, and you always mention this water on the brain thing. I am only asking you to clarify it. Just point me to a scripture that says that. I am very familiar with the scriptures that talk about the water of life. I know what it means.
It would help me a whole lot if I knew what or where you are coming from. Are you scientologist? Universalist? I don't know why people on this forum don't identify what they are. It would sure make for easier conversations.
Sorry katie . . . I won't trouble you anymore. You seem sincere and I am confident you follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" . . . which is all that really matters to me. You would call me a Christian Mystic . . . but I am just a Christian who follows Christ and also understands the science behind what we are expected to do. I generally do not engage with literalists because there is no common ground between us (except for the love of Christ).
However . . . there ARE those whose attitudes and views are so dangerous and destructive of God's love for us all and our love for one another . . . that I make exceptions and engage their nonsense directly. I know the scriptures contain God-inspired revelations . . . but they have been interpreted and recorded by ignorant primitives and translated across cultures and generations so many times the inspirations are not easily gleaned from them. They also must be properly divided as to content and purpose . . . the OT tells of Christ and provides the means to validate Him . . but it has egregiously distorted and savage beliefs about God that Jesus came to correct by His example and teaching in the NT.
Verna, You gave some excellent scriptures here, some I never would have thought to use. Thank you for that. I agree with so much of what you said.
You said, "Water baptism does not make one spiritually clean ("...not putting away of the filth of the flesh"...), for many who are emersed in water go and continue to sin just as they did before their water emersion. It is meerly an act to show man the intentions."
Greetings katie...
When you state this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie
I agree that baptism itself does not cleanse one of their sins. You rightly pointed out that God saves us because of His mercy and through the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. It is very clear that God does the saving. He does the work, not us. So there is nothing that we can boast about.
...you are absolutely correct.
However...when you follow it up with a, "However...", that would be the same as saying, "But...", as it negates everything you said prior to the, "But..." or, in your case, the "However...". Understand?
You cannot have it both ways katiemygirl.
Either the act of baptism in physical water cleanses us of our sins or it doesn't. It does not.
Either the act of baptism in physical water cleanses our soul unto rebirth and newness of life or it doesn't. It does not.
Either the act of baptism in physical water saves us or it doesn't. It does not...
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie
However, you cannot be saved without baptism.
This is simply not true katie.
One CAN absolutely be saved without the act of a physical emersion in water.
One CANNOT be saved, however, without the spiritual baptism of the Holy Ghost, indwelling.
God's mercy and grace is HOW we are saved. Baptism of the indwelling Holy Ghost occures when this saved one has grown into a matured, born-again, adopted son of God. This does not occur until this same saved one has received the knowledge of the truth in Christ Jesus, which is when they come to understand that in order to enter the Kingdom of God, they must keep the commandments of God, including the fourth one, to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy unto God. Until this takes place in the heart and mind of this same saved person, and they begin living a righteous, holy life, free from the committing of willfull sin...which is any transgression of any one of the Ten Commandments of God (this is all sin is katie..the transgression of the law of God...all of them...all TEN of them), they are not born-again...repentant of sins...a child of God.
If one is not living this life free of sin...free of transgressing the law of God...they are not of His...they are not a child of God, but of the devil. One either is, or they are not. Anything in-between is lukewarm katie...it is written. Anything in between is neither cold nor hot, and we both know what God says He will do with those who are found to be lukewarm...He will puke you out of His mouth. You cannot...I cannot...no one can walk in the Spirit and in the flesh at the same time...one cannot serve God and serve the devil at the same time...you will either serve one master or the other...you will choose who it is you will obey...that is your god...or your God.
From my own experience katie, to prove this, what I am teaching you, is true...
I was born-again (I thought) in 1988, in a church called Orlando Christian Center, pastored by Benny Hinn. A year later, I was baptised (emersed in water) by Benny Hinn. For the next 13 years, I faithfully attended church 3 times a week (I lived 45 minutes from church and drove back and forth each time), sang in his choir all of those years...sinned over and over again...each time feeling devistated, discouraged, and defeated...everytime!...crying out to God for forgiveness...but never hearing Him...never feeling His presence...never knowing for sure that He heard me.
Nothing made sense to me...the Bible said to not sin...and my pastor and everyone else said sin was alright...just ask God to forgive you, He will. That was very easy...but it lacked something...it lacked fortitude...the strength of mind and heart that allows one to endure the pain of forsaking the lusts of the flesh...of which this burning of the flesh is but a sweet perfume to the nostrils of God...it is His favorite flavor...
Spititually katie, my life has been a whirlwind of blessings...coming and going, since I came unto the knowledge of the truth, which was 3 years ago...give or take a month or two.
So I spent 22 years believing a lie about myself spiritually...believing I was born again from an altar call and a water baptism. Nothing could be farther from the truth sweet katie...and I am comissioned to tell the whole world about my awesome experience of redemption through Christ by the Holy Spirit! \o/ Hallelujah!...!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by katei
...It is strictly an act of submission...
...correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie
...to the will of God. He commanded belief and baptism. We obey.
...he commanded belief and baptism in the Holy Ghost katie to be a child of God...free from the sinful lusts of our sinful nature...a new man...a new life...regenerated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie
Baptism is way more than just an act to show man's intentions. It's true, many people after being baptized continue to live in sin, and God will be their judge. Everyone sins, including the best intentioned christians. But praise the Lord, we know we can be forgiven because Jesus died for us.
So when we say baptism saves us, we understand that it is not the water, but the grace of God, which He gives to us WHEN we obey Him at baptism. This is when we are forgiven our sins and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
Does this make sense?
Katie
I am sorry katie, but no, it does not make sense. It is the false teachings of Modern Day Christianity that has been taught now for generations that has taken over the minds and hearts of so many otherwise precious saints of God.
I love you...you are so precious. May you hear what the Spirit of the LORD is saying to you. Amen.
In Him,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-02-2011 at 03:16 PM..
Okay, here's my take on the passage. First, I take it literally word for word what it is saying.
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah,while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
1. Eight persons were brought safely through the water
2. Baptism corresponds to this
(this being the 8 brought safely through water).
3. Baptism saves you
4. Not as a removal of dirt from the body (not an outward cleansing)
5. Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience
6. the appeal of a good conscience is through the resurrection of Christ
7. Christ is now in heaven at the right hand of God
8. Angels, authorities, and powers are subjected to Him
Like I said, I take it literally, exactly the way it reads. I see no reason to take it any other way.
Now tell me how you see it.
Katie
Quote:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alivein the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,
The author states that Christ suffered for the sins of the unjust to bring them to ‘god’ being put to death in the flesh and being given life by the spirit by which he went and preached to the “spirits in prison”.
Quote:
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
To establish a parallel with “baptism”, the author argues that Noah and his family were saved from a corrupted world through water, i.e., by means of the flood waters (see Gen 6-8).
Quote:
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that [GK. antitupon], baptism [of the spirit] now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The author says that it is not this symbol of putting away the filth of the flesh that saves us [i.e. water baptism], but an appeal to ‘god’ for a good conscience through Christ's resurrection. It is an appeal to ‘god’ for a good conscience that “baptism” represents. The “baptism” that now saves us that Peter refers to is the baptism of “the spirit”. That is the “baptism” that saves us from our sins and produces a good conscience toward ‘god’ (see Mat. 3:11-12, Heb. 9:14).
Last edited by kids in america_; 05-02-2011 at 06:03 PM..
In Ephesians chapter two in verses 1and 5, Paul says they were dead because of sin, but now they are alive in Christ .
In Ephesians Chapter one verse 7 - Paul says they were made alive through the blood of Christ which produced their forgiveness of sins or made alive .
They went from being in a dead state to an alive state.
The only place in scripture that explains how and when and where The Blood of Christ is applied is clearly seen in Acts 2 or the establishment of the church .
Those Jews were dead in sin but made alive in verse 41, who went through the heavenly ordained plan to be made alive. This changed their state from being dead to being alive .
The same is true in a marriage. A bride or groom is in a single sate until they go through the marriage ceremony, and only then do the change Their state form single to married. state.
I don't think John's baptism was "an ordinance of the law." Are you saying that John's baptism was part of the Mosaic law? I don't think so. Can you show me a scripture that says that?
I believe those who were baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized because John't baptism could not give the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. The Holy Spirit wasn't given until Pentecost.
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Notice this.
Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered that they'd never even heard of the Holy Spirit.
So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
The Holy Spirit does not just come upon someone when they simply "believe."
Paul's comment shows that he understood the Holy Spirit comes when one believes and is baptized, otherwise why would he ask, "Then what baptism did you receive?" Do you see what I am saying here?
Katie
Jewish ceremonial purifications were used under the Law of Moses. John’s baptism was Jewish ceremonial of purification (See John 3:25-26). John was practicing a “baptism” that was fully in line with the Law of Moses.
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