Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I agree that one must believe first before they are baptized. However, I don't see where that means the they are saved by belief alone.
Yes, I am saying that Jesus says it's mandatory to believe and be baptized in order to be saved. This says nothing at all about the grace of God.
I am not saying that we have to work for our salvation. Baptism is in no way, shape, or form a work.
We are certainly saved by God's grace and by His grace alone. Yes, it's true that baptism does not make one a believer. I also agree that baptism does not save one. But I also think that it is not our faith that saves us either. Only God can save a person and He does that by grace. We are not saved by baptism, we are saved at baptism.
He didn't need to add baptism in this statement because he was writing to Christians who would have understood that baptism cannot be left out.
Okay, I got it. I never looked at it that way. But I can see how that makes sense in order to be obedient to God and to follow the example set by Jesus.
I am saying that you must believe and be baptized (both) to be saved.
Here's where I think the problem lies with you understanding what it is I say.
Read all of Ephesians 2. Paul is talking to christians. Pay particular attention to verses 4-5. Notice Paul says God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our transgressions. It is by grace you have been saved. Paul is telling them HOW they were saved. They were save by grace.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Made us alive in Christ, and were dead in our transgressions begs a question. WHEN were we made alive in Christ, and WHEN were we freed from our sins?
Romans 6 tells us when. It is when we were baptized into Christ. Verse 4 tells us that "just as He was raised from the dead, we too may live a new life. Verse 7 tells us that anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Galatians 3 tells us that all who have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Grace is the HOW we are saved. Baptism is the WHEN we are saved.
Can you show me any other scriptures that tell us when we are made alive in Christ, or when we put on Christ, or when we clothe ourselves with Christ?
Galatians 3: 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Romans 6: 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
I agree with you that one must believe before they are baptized, otherwise they would just be getting wet. However, that does not mean one is saved before they are baptized, especially since the scriptures so clearly tell us that the only way to be made alive in Christ is through baptism.
Katie
I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism.
I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism.
Paul didn't need to specify baptism in water in Jesus' name, but that's what he meant because the very definition of the word "baptism" is to immerse in water. If he had not meant immerse in water He would have said so, i.e., baptism in the Holy Spirit, Moses, fire, etc. The unmodified word "baptism" always means immersion in water.
Certainly baptism is a symbol or a picture but it is also the reality.
I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism.
I understand what you are saying. You believe Romans 6:3-5 is referring to Holy Spirit baptism. I disagree. Here's why.
The word "baptism" in the Bible always means baptism with water unless otherwise plainly indicated. There is baptism with the Holy Spirit, but whenever it is mentioned, it is plainly called that. Notice you never see the term "water baptism?" That's because "baptism" was clearly understood to mean immersion in water.
John the Baptist, and the disciples of Jesus baptized thousands of people long before the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The term "baptism" had a clearly recognized meaning to the people of that day. Literal baptism is with water, unless it is used symbolically about the Holy Spirit, the sufferings of Jesus, or the burial of Israel under the cloud, surrounded by the Red Sea. The scriptures will always let us know when they are not referring to literal water baptism.
Baptism in the Bible always refers to water baptism unless the passage plainly shows that the Lord is speaking of something else.
To say that baptism in Romans 6 is Holy Spirit baptism ignores the historical church not to mention the Jewish customs of baptism always being in water!
There are ancient baptistries all over Jerusalem! Baptism in water was not a new concept to the Jews during Jesus time. The purpose of baptism changed under the New Covenant. For the first time, ALL pentinent believers could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize all nations. If they were to do it it must be in water because the Bible says that Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. Therefore..... the water and Spirit message in John 3:5 which is two elements of one new birth.
References to baptism in water in the patristic literature/ early church is plentiful! It is extremely clear that for the first few centuries everyone was in agreement that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and was the only way to be saved.
I realize that early church history is not inspired work, but you certainly cannot ignore it, anymore that you can ignore our own American history.
Take a look at what the church fathers had to say.
Hermas c. 140-150 AD:
... when we wentdown into the water and received remission of our former sins... (Shepherd IV.iii.1) Note: Remission is simply another word for forgiveness.
Justin Martyr c. 150-165 AD
As many as believe that the things are true which are taught by us and decide to live accordingly are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting for the remission of their past sins and we pray and fast with them.Then they are brought by us where there is water and are born again (Apology 1.61) .
Then in discussing John 3:5 (a passage always associated with baptism in the early Christian literature) Justin continues:
In order that we... may obtain the remission of sins... there is pronounced in water over whom who has chosen to be born againand has repented of his sins the name of God the Father and the Lord of the universe (1.61).
In his discussion of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper) he says that no one is allowed to partake of the communion except the man who "has been washed with the washing that is for remission of sins and unto a second birth and is so living as Christ has enjoined" (1.66).
i c.130-200 AD: "We have received baptism for the remission of sins... And this baptism is the seal of eternal life and new birth unto God" (Dem. 3.41f. Haer. 5.11.2).
The Creed of the Council of Nicaea 325 AD
This fourth century creed is well known. It is ironic that although it is cherished by churchgoers the world over the import of its words is frequently overlooked: ... I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins...
"Baptism was always a burial. The command to baptize was always a command to immerse." Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, Page 451
"Immersion was the oldest method employed. 'Buried in him by baptism.'" Catholic Biblical Encyclopedia, Page 61, Paragraph 1
"It is evident that the action performed in baptizing was immersion." Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible, Page 202
"The early church practiced immersion or submerging under the water." World Book of Encyclopedia, Volume 2, Page 70
"Martin Luther preferred immersion as more true to original practice." Encyclopedia of the Lutheran Church, Volume 1, Page 188
Naturally these affirmations do not stand on a par with the authority of scripture but they do shed light on the early Christians understanding of baptism.
The word "baptize" comes from the Greek word "baptizo," which means "to plunge, dip, or immerse." The words "planted together" and 'buried" are strong indications of immersion in water.
Every account of baptism in the Bible was by immersion:
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water . . ." (Matthew 3:16).
"And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there . . . " (John 3:23).
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him" (Acts 8:38).
Notice that baptism is referred to in the Bible as a burial (planted with Him) : Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12.
We are immersed in the water and the Spirit descends on us or is poured out on us and into us.
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 04-30-2011 at 06:44 AM..
I think I see what you are doing now. Look at it from this point of view of what it means to be baptized into Jesus. “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” Romans 6:3-5.
In these three verses Apostle Paul deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. Let it be noticed, however, that the apostle makes it clear we are baptized into Jesus’ death with not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture, of the real baptism.
You are correct, antredd. The word "eis" translated as into is the most misunderstood and mistranslated in the scriptures. It is what confuses mainstream believers that the intellectual "believe in" Jesus is sufficient. It (pisteuō eis) is "believe on/into" which is an "immersion" into Christ . . . not an intellectual accomplishment. Similarly in these verses . . . baptized into is misunserstood.
If as katie believes Jesus's real baptism was the water one given by John (and the one we need to emulate) . . . then WHY did Jesus repeatedly refer to the baptism He had to be baptised with AFTER having been baptized by John?
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
Baptism is "repeated immersion" . . . not a one time ritual magic as so many would believe because it "tickles their ears." This is the repeated immersion of our soul into the internal "water of life" surrounding our brain by the exercise of self-control over the negative drives generated by our animal nature. It is this repeated immersion that produces our emotional maturity and strengthens our embryo Spirit to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit . . . like Christ ("we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."). The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was to overcome the scourging and death to be reborn as Spirit (Holy Spirit) . . . since His consciousness is the ONLY human one that actually contains the Holy Spirit of God(Identical) . . . and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as the Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness forever after His rebirth.
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings [GK: baptismos], and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
I've cited these verses a couple of times on this board, but no one have commented directly on them yet, as far as I know.
But it seems these verses from scripture mentions what took place before the “reformation”. There has been a change, since "Jesus" is now the High Priest, these things mentioned in verse 10, e.g., divers washings [GK: baptismos], are not imposed anymore. At least, that's my reading of it.
Last edited by kids in america_; 04-30-2011 at 03:27 PM..
Paul didn't need to specify baptism in water in Jesus' name, but that's what he meant because the very definition of the word "baptism" is to immerse in water. If he had not meant immerse in water He would have said so, i.e., baptism in the Holy Spirit, Moses, fire, etc. The unmodified word "baptism" always means immersion in water.
Certainly baptism is a symbol or a picture but it is also the reality.
A symbol is not the reality of what is symbolized. A symbol is not the reality, but just the sign of the reality. “Water” baptism was just a type, shadow, or symbol of a spiritual reality.
I've cited these verses a couple of times on this board, but no one have commented directly on them yet, as far as I know.
But it seems these verses from scripture mentions what took place before the “reformation”. There has been a change, since "Jesus" is now the High Priest, these things mentioned in verse 10, e.g., divers washings [GK: baptismos], are not imposed anymore. At least, that's my reading of it.
Hi Kids,
I did address this. I'm not sure which thread it was or what post, but I remember writing about it.
I told you that various washings were done away with when Jesus died on the cross.
On the day of Pentecost, the people were told to repent and be baptized. And yes, it was in water. It was the first time christian baptism was administered, and for the first time, ALL pentinent believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I also addressed the water thing in another post. It may be in thread "simply believe." I'm not sure, so check it out. It was a long post, and I spent a lot of time on it. I've been waiting for you response.
A symbol is not the reality of what is symbolized. A symbol is not the reality, but just the sign of the reality. “Water” baptism was just a type, shadow, or symbol of a spiritual reality.
Hi Kids,
Could you please tell me what this passage means line by line. Can you tell me exactly what it says?
Katie
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this,( now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
You are correct, antredd. The word "eis" translated as into is the most misunderstood and mistranslated in the scriptures. It is what confuses mainstream believers that the intellectual "believe in" Jesus is sufficient. It (pisteuō eis) is "believe on/into" which is an "immersion" into Christ . . . not an intellectual accomplishment. Similarly in these verses . . . baptized into is misunserstood.
If as katie believes Jesus's real baptism was the water one given by John (and the one we need to emulate) . . . then WHY did Jesus repeatedly refer to the baptism He had to be baptised with AFTER having been baptized by John?
Luke 12:50 (New King James Version)
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
Baptism is "repeated immersion" . . . not a one time ritual magic as so many would believe because it "tickles their ears." This is the repeated immersion of our soul into the internal "water of life" surrounding our brain by the exercise of self-control over the negative drives generated by our animal nature. It is this repeated immersion that produces our emotional maturity and strengthens our embryo Spirit to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit . . . like Christ ("we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."). The baptism Jesus was to be baptized with was to overcome the scourging and death to be reborn as Spirit (Holy Spirit) . . . since His consciousness is the ONLY human one that actually contains the Holy Spirit of God(Identical) . . . and He could thereby make it available to the rest of us as the Comforter and guide within the collective human consciousness forever after His rebirth.
Thanks for your insight. I have not seen it explained this way before.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
