Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes, we know this because Jesus said to the woman at the well:
“Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,(refering to the physical water)
"but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13-14
A different time Jesus said:
"Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink." John 7:37
So we find again that there is a restrictive access to eternal life, just as there was in the OT.
let him come to me
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Act 4:12
It's not optional ... you must come to Jesus to be saved while "under heaven".
and drink."
It's just not enough to come to Jesus. Many people came to Jesus, but they did (and still do) for the wrong reasons.
Some came to Jesus to trap him in his words.
Some came to see a miracle show.
Some came to see an earthly king expecting him to establish an earthly kingdom.
Some came just to mock him.
When Jesus said "and drink", that is the equivalent as ..."believes in me".
Amen.... twin, isn't it wonderful to know Jesus is the thirst quencher !!
To many are drinking worldly Gatorade !!
That's a good question and there really is no answer to it. According to the bible God has chosen His people before the foundation of the world. It's something that really bothered me asa child. When my Granny would read ne the story of Jacob and Essau I had a hard time understanding why God chose Jacob over Essau before they had done one thing in life. Not only that but Essau seemed to me to be a far better person from my Human perspective. Jacob was sneakey and underhanded and really seemed to me to be somewhat a creep.
God in His sovereignity chose Jacob for His own reasons. God does not answer to us for what He does or does not do. Many people including people who claim to be Believers often express, when confronted with truths from the bible that are as clear as the nose on my face, {And that's very clear being a big honker}. "That can't be true! That's NOT FAIR". For some reason these people think that they are in the position to apply their human understanding to the maker and sustainer of the universe. He who created the entire cosmos out of nothing by a word. This awesome almighty God will answer to them for what they think He should be. Jesus taught us to pray thus, "Thy will be done". This is not a supplication but a statement. Everything God wills comes to pass. Much of todays Theology says,"no, that's not the case, the free will of Man trumps the purposes of God. We in our human strength can choose to be whatever we want". That's far from Christian but is pure humanism.
Man exalted to the max. The suprelative of Man's pride and folly. In other words it's 666.
Thank you for the reply lucknow. I believe what your stating is Calvinism, debated here before.
I guess by believing it, your believing that God, before the foundation of the world, chose people to be tormented forever and ever. Kind of a bummer for those unlucky ones.
That's a good question and there really is no answer to it. According to the bible God has chosen His people before the foundation of the world. It's something that really bothered me asa child. When my Granny would read ne the story of Jacob and Essau I had a hard time understanding why God chose Jacob over Essau before they had done one thing in life. Not only that but Essau seemed to me to be a far better person from my Human perspective. Jacob was sneakey and underhanded and really seemed to me to be somewhat a creep.
The theme of the first and second son runs throughout the bible. You can see the culmination of this in Romans, where Paul equates Adam to the 1st man, and Christ to the 2nd. The story of Esau (1st born) & Jacob (2nd born) can be understood to be a shadow of the Adam/Christ principle.
In Adam ALL die. In Christ are ALL made alive.
Our old Adam (the first man) dies. But ALL are made alive in the Christ (the second man.) And this is true for all people.
So, yes, Jacob (Christ/the new spiritual man) is "chosen" and Esau (Adam/our old flesh man) is the vessel of dishonor which will be destroyed and this is true for all people. Not that some people are chosen for heaven and some are chosen for hell.
Thank you for the reply lucknow. I believe what your stating is Calvinism, debated here before
I guess by believing it, your believing that God, before the foundation of the world, chose people to be tormented forever and ever. Kind of a bummer for those unlucky ones.
I'm not a Calvinist. I would say it's more accurate to say that I'm a follower of the biblical truths as so well explained by Saint Augustine.
To "Elect" means to select or choose. According to the bible, before creation God selected from the Human race those who He would redeem, justify,sanctify and glorify in Jeusus Christ. {Rom. 8:28-39; Eph.1:3-14, Thess.2;13-14;2, 2Tim. 1:9-10.}
The devine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace. It is not merited by anything in those who are chosen. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind only condemnation; so it's a wonder that He should choose to save any of us.
Like any truth about God, the doctrine of election involves mystery and stirs controversy. But in scripture it is a pastoral doctrine helping Christians to see how great is the grace that saves them, moving them to respond with humility,confidence and praise. We do not know what others God has chosen among those who do not yet believe, nor why He choose us in particular. We do know though, that we believe now only because we were chosen, and we know that as believers we can rely on God to finish the good work He has begun. {1 Cor1;8-9, Phil.1;6, 1Thess. 5:23, 24;2, 2Tim.1:12, 4;18.} For these reasons the knowledge of election is a source of gratitude and confidence.
Reprobation is the name given to God's eternal decision regarding those sinners who he has not chosen for life. In not choosing them for life God has determined not to change them. They will continue in sin, and finally will be judged for what they have done. Reprobation is taught in the bible of course,{Rom.9;14-24, 1Pet.2:8} but as a doctrine it's bearing on Christian behaviour is indirect. God's decree of election is secret, which persons are elect and which are not will not be revealed before the Judgement. Until that time, God's command is that the call to repent and believe is to be preached to everyone.
lucknow, quick question. Why would God choose to save you but not your neighbor if He is no respector of persons? You said He did all the work, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7
Thank you for the reply lucknow. I believe what your stating is Calvinism, debated here before.
I guess by believing it, your believing that God, before the foundation of the world, chose people to be tormented forever and ever. Kind of a bummer for those unlucky ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
The theme of the first and second son runs throughout the bible. You can see the culmination of this in Romans, where Paul equates Adam to the 1st man, and Christ to the 2nd. The story of Esau (1st born) & Jacob (2nd born) can be understood to be a shadow of the Adam/Christ principle.
In Adam ALL die. In Christ are ALL made alive.
Our old Adam (the first man) dies. But ALL are made alive in the Christ (the second man.) And this is true for all people.
So, yes, Jacob (Christ/the new spiritual man) is "chosen" and Esau (Adam/our old flesh man) is the vessel of dishonor which will be destroyed and this is true for all people. Not that some people are chosen for heaven and some are chosen for hell.
I usually abandon all efforts to reason with unreasoning credulity as we have encountered here. The premises that are accepted are so unreasonable and impossible to justify that any discussion proceeding from them is moot. Still I admire your tenacity in not letting the irrationality go unchallenged. I suppose it is a character flaw that I am so easily put off by the intransigence of it.
I usually abandon all efforts to reason with unreasoning credulity as we have encountered here. The premises that are accepted are so unreasonable and impossible to justify that any discussion proceeding from them is moot. Still I admire your tenacity in not letting the irrationality go unchallenged. I suppose it is a character flaw that I am so easily put off by the intransigence of it.
Don't lose heart.
"Virtually every religion on the planet today has already begun what will surely be a decades-long process of moving from flat-earth understandings of its core insights to evolutionary interpretations of those same doctrines. But this effort is still in its infancy. Any who choose this path now have an opportunity to make a profound and lasting difference. We are the fishes climbing out onto land for the first time, trying to make the most of our new situation. This is truly a moment of grace." ~ Michael Dowd
The theme of the first and second son runs throughout the bible. You can see the culmination of this in Romans, where Paul equates Adam to the 1st man, and Christ to the 2nd. The story of Esau (1st born) & Jacob (2nd born) can be understood to be a shadow of the Adam/Christ principle.
In Adam ALL die. In Christ are ALL made alive.
Our old Adam (the first man) dies. But ALL are made alive in the Christ (the second man.) And this is true for all people.
So, yes, Jacob (Christ/the new spiritual man) is "chosen" and Esau (Adam/our old flesh man) is the vessel of dishonor which will be destroyed and this is true for all people. Not that some people are chosen for heaven and some are chosen for hell.
Yes, exactly!!! ...... however I can't rep you, must spread it around first apparently.
I'm not a Calvinist. I would say it's more accurate to say that I'm a follower of the biblical truths as so well explained by Saint Augustine.
To "Elect" means to select or choose. According to the bible, before creation God selected from the Human race those who He would redeem, justify,sanctify and glorify in Jeusus Christ. {Rom. 8:28-39; Eph.1:3-14, Thess.2;13-14;2, 2Tim. 1:9-10.}
The devine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace. It is not merited by anything in those who are chosen. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind only condemnation; so it's a wonder that He should choose to save any of us.
Like any truth about God, the doctrine of election involves mystery and stirs controversy. But in scripture it is a pastoral doctrine helping Christians to see how great is the grace that saves them, moving them to respond with humility,confidence and praise. We do not know what others God has chosen among those who do not yet believe, nor why He choose us in particular. We do know though, that we believe now only because we were chosen, and we know that as believers we can rely on God to finish the good work He has begun. {1 Cor1;8-9, Phil.1;6, 1Thess. 5:23, 24;2, 2Tim.1:12, 4;18.} For these reasons the knowledge of election is a source of gratitude and confidence.
Reprobation is the name given to God's eternal decision regarding those sinners who he has not chosen for life. In not choosing them for life God has determined not to change them. They will continue in sin, and finally will be judged for what they have done. Reprobation is taught in the bible of course,{Rom.9;14-24, 1Pet.2:8} but as a doctrine it's bearing on Christian behaviour is indirect. God's decree of election is secret, which persons are elect and which are not will not be revealed before the Judgement. Until that time, God's command is that the call to repent and believe is to be preached to everyone.
Glad to hear you are an Augustine fan. It shows in your theological ideas. What's your take on Acquinas ?
I usually abandon all efforts to reason with unreasoning credulity as we have encountered here. The premises that are accepted are so unreasonable and impossible to justify that any discussion proceeding from them is moot. Still I admire your tenacity in not letting the irrationality go unchallenged. I suppose it is a character flaw that I am so easily put off by the intransigence of it.
The "Let's start with hell" thread wore me out but you hung in on that one, although I saw your justifiable frustration as it devolved. It amazes me how anyone thinks they will attract people to their belief systems by insulting their intelligence.
""Don't change beliefs, transform the believer" is a good motto that works quite well for me and countless others that I have observed, including you Mystic.
Maybe on the "Heaven" thread we can start to "evolve" - No pun intended for the anti-evolutionaries.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
