Should We Really Have to Play These Guessing Games When Reading the Bible? (Gospel, sinners)

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Thrillobyte is probably having problems because he is listening to voices that are outside the Bible. By you encouraging him using yourself as an example is to encourage him to push him farther away from where his help will come from.

No Ilene...I take you exactly in context of what your new found enlightenment professes.

I didn't know the bible had voiceS. Aren't we supposed to listen to the voice of the Lord whether while reading scriptures or sitting quietly? The bible does not SPEAK.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Heartsong

I didn't know the bible had voiceS. Aren't we supposed to listen to the voice of the Lord whether while reading scriptures or sitting quietly? The bible does not SPEAK.

Jesus Christ who is the truth,said my sheep hear my voice,another voice they will not follow(men's interpretation of the bible....bible voices if you will), that same Christ is in us today teaching us to walk in the Way of life.......loving our neighbor as ourselves.

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

John 14 verses 20 & 27

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Wow, that's harsh. The re-writes and translations are what made it what it is today......a flawed but reliable source and instruction booklet.

Did you really say that. Do you want your doctor using "flawed by reliable" information to treat you.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I'm sorry Ken i disagree. Jesus said the scriptures testified of Him(the Truth).
Truth is not a belief(the grave error of fundamental christianity),it's the reality of who God really IS. Jesus said if you have seen me(not the man,but the life IN the man)you have seen the Father(Who God really IS).

Please understand in no way am i belittling the scriptures that testify of the Truth(Jesus Christ).

That's what I said and without them, how would we know of him?

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

The truth is not concealed from us, it is concealed for us ...

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Reserved for those who apprehend clearly and with certainty: "Faith is not believing that God can, it's knowing that he will."

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Well the fundies tell me that God desires something that he can never have ... They tell me that God has pipe dreams ... Am i supposed to feel secure thinking that is true? really ? ...

Fundamentalism carries an uncompromising position of inanition, being overly concerned with the outside of their cup.
Instead of seeking its contents for nourishment and rest.

"The Spirit dwells within each of us; its food and water for the soul."

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Actually Paul it did, the law and the prophets all pointed to the truth - Christ, and if we didn't have the recorded word of God, well, how would we know about Jesus? I believe we need to be thankful that we all have the scriptures to testify of Him.

So Ken you are saying that the Truth came by Moses ?. I do not believe it did, John 1:17 says it came by Jesus Christ who is THE Truth.Do you not think it would have stated that truth came by Moses also if it was so ?.

I'm certainly thankful for the scriptures because they testify of the Truth who IS Jesus Christ.

I'm convinced if any man wants to know what Truth IS,all he needs to do is look at the life of Jesus Christ.Which throughout the scriptures we are encouraged to do.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Thrillobyte is probably having problems because he is listening to voices that are outside the Bible.

I really thought this thread would die a quiet death after a few posts. Imagine my surprise!

I'd like to address twin.spin's observation, which is partly right. I do get sidetracked by voices outside the Bible, but more than not I get confused by the Bible itself. Much of this has to do with exactly what Asheville Native was saying:

Now compound that perhaps hundreds of times with all the re-writes and translations from language to language to language, by people we don't know if they were fully literate in the languages they were translating to or from, then factor into interpretations, agendas, fears, phobias, bias and hatred they had as individuals and it is human nature it influences their efforts.

This assuming that the original was an accurate and coherent document to begin with, and we know that it wasn't, as it is just the fears, bias, agenda, phobias and hatreds of the original authors, who were mere men, not gods, so you holy book is seriously flawed from the get-go, only to be further polluted by untold rewrites and translations.

Even if you believe the "original" were valid to give any credence to today's version is absurd, for it cannot possibly resemble the original, too much tampering has occurred.

but this is the reality anyone living within the last 500 years must deal with.

Now, if you good people don't mind I like to give a couple of examples of what I'm talking about when I say that often it is the Bible itself that throws me into a tizzy. Let's start with Romans 5:19

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many [polloi]were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many [polloi] will be made righteous.

Pretty clear-cut: all men ("the many") were made sinners, so all men ("the many") will be made righteous. Sounds pretty convincing for UR'ers.

Let's back up to verse 18:

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all [pantas] people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all [pantas] people.

Nothing to indicate so far that "all" and "the many" are referring not to ALL men who were ever born, but only those who were born "in Christ" will be made righteous, right?

Wrong! Perhaps ET'ers do have a point when they say these verses must be read in context because when we go to the verse that begins this famous passage, verse 17, we do see a qualifier:

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

The bolded above does possibly qualify the "all" and "the many" as referring to those who receive Christ, and not all men who were ever born. Consequently, when all three verses are read "in context" perhaps "all" does only mean "some".

Now let's look at two more verses, by Jesus and by Paul that do appear to contradict each other: Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:6

Mark: (also repeated verbatim in Matthew)

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many [pollon]."

Jesus says He did not come to give Himself a ransom for all men, but only for some ("many").

But Paul seems to contradict Jesus' own words when he says in 1 Timothy 2:6

[Christ Jesus] who gave himself as a ransom for all [panton] people

This time, as I search the entire passage, verse 1 through 7 I see absolutely nothing that would suggest Paul is speaking only of those who are "in Christ".

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

So which is it: did Jesus give His life a ransom for many? Or, as Paul boldly states, did He give His life a ransom for all?

See why I say the Bible itself twists me into knots when I read it?

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

See why I say the Bible itself twists me into knots when I read it?

The peace of God that passes all understanding leaves no man twisted in knots. What is the peace of God telling you Thrill ?

If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink.
Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water(the state fundamental christianity leaves you in)John 4.

[hiker45]

Don't take the Bible so seriously. It is simply an anthology of stories written by a bunch of different people at different times in history, so it is bound to have contradictions.

If you believe in a god and you want to know what your god wants you to do, then just sit down and think about it. I bet the answer will come to you.

Do you really think your god will leave you hanging? You would not treat your child like that, and I bet you believe your god would not treat you like that.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by pcamps

The peace of God that passes all understanding leaves no man twisted in knots. What is the peace of God telling you Thrill ?

Well, pcamps, I posed the question

Jesus says He did not come to give Himself a ransom for all men, but only for some ("many"). But Paul seems to contradict Jesus' own words when he says in 1 Timothy 2:6 "[Christ Jesus] who gave himself as a ransom for all [panton] people." So which is it: did Jesus give His life a ransom only for some? Or, as Paul boldly states, did He give His life a ransom for all?

I'm waiting for the HS to send me an answer, but so far nothing is forthcoming. Maybe you could take a stab at it. I'm truly baffled by the apparent contradiction.