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You're absolutely right. According to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”
Indeed, that is why I made sure I wrote that it is a belief in some capacity. In comparison to what we are now and what God the Father will perfect us into, we will be gods.
Most people misunderstand (usually through lack of discussion) that many who believe they will become a god are self indulgent thinking that they would be independant of the supreme authority of the Father.
It is a bold statement in most religious climates to claim I will become a god, but I will, as will everyone as children of the most high.
What else would the offspring of a God be, but a god in some capacity, in that context could we be independant of the most high? absolutely not
People scoff mostly because they can't believe such a thing is possible, let alone that their own scriptures say it.
And I have been discussing it, but I asked you a question. Why ask questions while telling me you already know the answer?
Because...the rest of us want to know the answers also. There is nothing wrong with asking a question when you already know the answer...it is to educate those who don't have the answer.
Though they may not teach it overtly now, the doctrine of God being a former man has been in the writings and doctrines of the Mormon (LDS) church since iJoseph Smith. I have read numerous books which quoted many references to it and the following is from a website.
"What has the Mormon Church consistently taught as doctrine from 1844 to 2005?
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us. Here, then, is eternal life--to know that only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you. .. God himself, the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ."
- The Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345, also quoted heavily by the church, see Gospel Principles, Chapter 47."
There are several leaders and publications quoted in the above website, but I didn't see anything of recent note in it.
I would think though, that something expounded upon by the man who was given the golden plates and the power to translate them would hold much significance.
I have great respect for Katzpur and her choice of 'religion'. But I knew I had read much of this doctrine in the books I read and there was much more than a little poem in the history of this movement.
I do not know what influence The Ensign has in the Mormon faith.
"The concept of God being an exalted man has been taught in the LDS Church as recently as 2005 in an official LDS Church publication:
"Many religions teach that human beings are children of God, but often their conception of Him precludes any kind of bond resembling a parent-child relationship. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible relationship: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit … was to make himself visible … , you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another." - Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female, The Ensign, Jan. 2005, pg. 48"
Sounds like they changed the teaching when it was challenged, and there seems to be some effort to hide and and 'explain away' some other teachings.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-23-2011 at 10:36 AM..
Jumping in to show the meaning of Psalm 82, in light of the Word of God:
the "sons of God" being spoken to in that passage are the created "Watcher" angels -whose names, many times, include the designation of an "el" in them [see Enoch and other ancient writings].
In Psalm 82's original Hebrew, Adam was the one/echad prince that fell/rapha and got cast out of Eden and lost son-ship [Malachi 2:15 and Genesis 5:2, states that Adam was made male and female, with one Adam spirit, to bring forth "sons of God =godly seed [and the purpose of Adam being a son of God of the human being kind, and made male and female, was to bring forth the created seed out of the loins of the firstborn/head of the race Adam, nurtured in the womb of the female Adam, so as to "build up and be, itself, the living temple/city of God" for the Glory of the God of Glory, who is Spirit and not flesh, to indwell].
Adam fell from sonship, when he died and lost the glory irrevocably, for his flesh is clay, and clay cannot be used for Glory after it is defiled, but must be made into a brand new vessel by regeneration [which is the lesson of the Torah]; but Adam was promised the Seed of the Woman [personified Spirit of Zion above] as the Redeemer/Kinsman -to come, and who is come and in whose image of New Man flesh which was to come and is come, Adam was made: Romans 5:14; Genesis 1:26-28.
The Watchers/sons of God dwell Eden, in the City of God above earth [and which "above" earth is the stretched out expanse/firmament of this earth that "no man can measure" for it was stretched out from earth on day 2 of creation week]; and the sons of God in Eden's Mount, above, "watch" over the sons of Adam on earth, and intercede for them and rule as judges over them from there [again, see Enoch and also Daniel chapter 4].
The threat to the created Watcher "sons of God" who are designated as singular "el" by their names -and the plural is Elohym and sons of Elohym, as a group- is that they shall fall like the one prince [Adam] for not doing their jobs of judging in righteousness over the sons of Adam.
FYI: Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Remiel and Saraqael are seven of the holy Watchers, and they are the chief rulers of them, in the City of God in Eden, as Enoch states. Two hundred of the holy watchers fell before the flood, by their own choice and oath [see Enoch1 ]. More fell after the flood [see Moses, in Genesis 6], and more are in danger of falling and do fall, as the Word states.
When Jesus returns to reign, those warned sons of God/watchers in Eden, will be cast down forever, and the regenerated in spirit [and then in flesh], adopted sons of Adam [who get the name of the New Man, "Israel" written on their DNA of regeneration flesh], will replace the cast down princes who will be cast down from Eden above, who did not heed the warning to them, of Psalm 82.
Psalm 75:2,3, in the original Hebrew also states that the pillars of earth will be "reset" using those raptured/laqach saints of God, for the glorious Sabbath Rest of earth, which is the millennial reign.
So hope this helps to clarify who are the sons of the most high, in Psalm 82, who are judges/rulers over earth, and who get the warning of their coming fall and death, like Adam, from Eden and from the presence of the Most Holy Glory.
So Israel, the "God of the whole earth" of the human being kind, is the "Second Man", and the Second Man human being race has one "Firstborn", and that one "Firstborn is the "Everlasting Father" who adopts the sons of Adam by His own paid Ransom for them; and He is the Father who will never leave us or forsake us and ever lives to make intercession for us with the Unseen Glory above.
He is YHWH the Word, come in human being, second Man creation flesh like Adam's flesh [ indeed, Adam was made in the image of that very flesh which was to come and is come, as Romans 5:14 states], but He is the New Man, in that flesh, not an old man, an Adam.
YHWH is the Redeemer/Kinsman of Isaiah 59 who put on the garment of Kinsman/Redeemer [the "Israel" flesh -the "Ish who is the Sar/Prince, the El/God]"; and in that flesh He is EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL = "God the Mighty God, Israel", who gave His own name to Jacob, as the sign of the adoption to come.
"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us [the adopted born again in Christ sons] that we should be called the sons of God".
Redemption is adoption back, to being sons of God in the New Man name, for in Adam, all die, but in Christ all are made alive to God and become sons of God in His New Man name.
This post is to clarify the points of confusion of "God": who is -and what is- a son of God of the human being kind. We will never have the name "YHWH" -the Life/Breath, the Father of Creation" written on us as Jesus the Christ comes in flesh has [Revelation 19], for He is dually YHWH, in the Person of the Word, now manifest in flesh of New Human Being creation.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
YHWH is written on the crown of the High PRiest" no human being "knows that name" but Christ Himself, who has come incarnate in "Israel" flesh, not Adam flesh.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name. God is come in flesh, and His flesh is the New Name "Israel", not the old flesh, Adam.
Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you orphans/comfortless: I will come to you.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Indeed, that is why I made sure I wrote that it is a belief in some capacity. In comparison to what we are now and what God the Father will perfect us into, we will be gods.
Most people misunderstand (usually through lack of discussion) that many who believe they will become a god are self indulgent thinking that they would be independant of the supreme authority of the Father.
It is a bold statement in most religious climates to claim I will become a god, but I will, as will everyone as children of the most high.
What else would the offspring of a God be, but a god in some capacity, in that context could we be independant of the most high? absolutely not
People scoff mostly because they can't believe such a thing is possible, let alone that their own scriptures say it.
But several of the leaders in the Mormon faith have written that God was once a man like us. I find that offensive, whether or not the majority of present believers believe that, the main founders of the faith declared it such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And so have many leaders repeated it throughout the years. There is no possibility of misinterpretation as these men spoke English. I can see relegating some inconsequential beliefs to the scrap heap, but they keep the thought of not drinking caffein to this day, tho I personally know some who drink soda that contains caffein and eat chocolate because it was not expressly forbidden in the original statement to abstain from caffein for health reasons. So how do they retain this idea and sweep such a fundamental idea of who God is under the carpet? I would think if the man who translated the Golden Tablets revealed this, it must be important. Or if they think he was mistaken in this, how do they trust the other claims he made? I am sorry, I have great respect for many I know who follow Mormon beliefs and some do wonderful things, but the tenets of their faith seem awfully strange to me. But I used to believe in ET, so I certainly can't judge anyone for their beliefs, just pointing out that the man/God relationship was there from the early days of LDS theology.
The question remains: Do mormons believe there is potential for a man to progress to a status of a god, even if a lesser god. Yes, or no?
Here is what the mormon founding fathers said:
God
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428). <
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115). - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (D&C 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-23-2011 at 10:55 AM..
God tells usHe is the first God and last God, and there will not be other gods after Him.
Isaiah 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, andI am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
The first sin that mankind was tempted with by Satan was to become God. Think about it...
God tells usHe is the first God and last God, and there will not be other gods after Him.
Isaiah 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
Isaiah 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, andI am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
The first sin that mankind was tempted with by Satan was to become God. Think about it...
Let's try it this way: Do you believe there is potential for a mormon to progress to a status of a God. Yes, or no?
By God's will and grace, yes. It is God's will that we become perfect, as He is perfect. Read the quote from C.S. Lewis again. It explains our belief exactly.
Quote:
You have clarified the question about Adam, You said Adam was not a god, and still is not a god of any degree, he was only a man like the rest of us. Correct?
Correct.
Quote:
How about Jopeph Smith? Is he also only a man in heaven, and not a god of any kind?
But several of the leaders in the Mormon faith have written that God was once a man like us. I find that offensive, whether or not the majority of present believers believe that, the main founders of the faith declared it such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And so have many leaders repeated it throughout the years. There is no possibility of misinterpretation as these men spoke English. I can see relegating some inconsequential beliefs to the scrap heap, but they keep the thought of not drinking caffein to this day, tho I personally know some who drink soda that contains caffein and eat chocolate because it was not expressly forbidden in the original statement to abstain from caffein for health reasons. So how do they retain this idea and sweep such a fundamental idea of who God is under the carpet? I would think if the man who translated the Golden Tablets revealed this, it must be important. Or if they think he was mistaken in this, how do they trust the other claims he made? I am sorry, I have great respect for many I know who follow Mormon beliefs and some do wonderful things, but the tenets of their faith seem awfully strange to me. But I used to believe in ET, so I certainly can't judge anyone for their beliefs, just pointing out that the man/God relationship was there from the early days of LDS theology.
Here is a link that may help, most information that will say things that are offensive to you are possibly overlooking the context.
Isn't there a scripture that speaks of "the man" Jesus. aren't the critics taking that verse and amplifying it to say things that may not be true?
Misinterpretation is about the easiest thing that can happen with language.
The crux of the matter to me is if a Mormon believes that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.
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