Paul's writings Authenticated by Peter - says not for the unlearned that wrestle with them to their own destruction (Gospels, incarnation)
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Christ once said in answer to a question regarding times of the end that "not even the Son knoweth, but ONLY THE FATHER."
Not quite equal then. If Christ was also truly all-knowing, he wouldn't have had to call a Gentile woman a "dog" to see if she would pass the test,. and repeatedly deny her. He would have just helped her (if in fact he really did say this as it occurs in the sceiptures).
Also when he said "no one has ascended to heaven"..(John 3:13) didn't both Elijah and Enoch ascend into heaven before him? Yes they did. There is a way to explain that verse that makes sense though...because I'd rather get at the real truth than reject any of it.
But I'd be more inclined to accept the book of John if it wasn't written about 70 years after the Crucifixion. Anything that important should have been written down right away. Because of that..(and maybe other factors) the issue of his divinity wasn't "settled" until hundreds of years after his death.
The (first) question I wanted to ask though is: Why would Jesus call Peter "satan" when Peter didn't want to see the lord harmed, and then turn around and pray to the Father that the cup would pass from him, so that he wouldn't have to be crucified? Was that satan also? And if so..then how can Jesus and the father be truly equal? If Jesus can only do the will of the Father...how can he even think to pray something against the Father's will..or even contradict himself in this way...with how he treated Peter?
Peter, not understanding that Jesus' mission was to go to the cross to die for the sins of the world began to rebuke Jesus. He couldn't understand how the Messiah could die at the hands of the religious leaders. Therefore, Satan sought to use Peter to keep Jesus from the cross. Satan had earlier tried to get Jesus to take a shortcut (Matt 4:8-10) by bypassing the cross and accepting Satan's offer of the kingdom. The cross had to come before the crown. Peter didn't understand this, but Satan did. Therefore, Jesus directly addressed Satan when He said to Peter ''Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.'' (Matt 16:23).
Jesus Christ is the God-Man. He is in hypostatic union. He is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. At the moment of the virgin birth of His humanity He also became true humanity. During His First advent, Jesus laid aside the independent use of His deity in keeping with the Father's plan for the incarnation. Therefore, as man, Jesus could choose not to use the atttributes of His deity, which is why He could be ignorant about certain things.
Jesus, though without a sin nature, could still be tempted from without. By the world, and by Satan.
As the time of His betrayal, arrest, and crucifixion approached, He became distressed to the point of sweating blood. This was sorrow and distress such as He had never known in His earthly life. He told the disciples that He was deeply grieved, to the point of death (Matt 26:38). He knew that when the sins of the world were poured out on Him during the period of 12 noon to 3 PM., His fellowship with God the Father was going to be broken (Matt 27:46). Something which in all of eternity had never happened. And that was agonizing to Him. In addition, the thought of coming into contact with the sins of the world was repugnant to Him even though that is why He came into the world (2 Cor 5:21). In His moment of weakness, an angel from heaven appeared to Him to strengthen Him (Luke 22:43).
Yes, Jesus prayed that the cup He was to drink from could pass away, but He said to the Father, 'Your will be done' (Luke 22:42).
To what extent Satan pressured Jesus at this time, we can't know this side of heaven.
Your issues with the equality of Jesus Christ with the Father stem from not understanding the hypostatic union and Kenosis of Jesus Christ. I have gone into great detail about this on another thread a few months ago. You can research those terms. I'm not going to take the time to go into them here.
The gospel of John was not written 70 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. It is dated between 85 and 95 A.D. Some scholars have recently suggested an earlier date between 50 and 70 A.D. Skeptics like to give the gospels a late date in order to discredit them.
Before Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world and access into the third heaven was open to believers as signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple, no believer went to heaven, but instead went to the Paradise side of Hades. Since the cross, heaven is now open to all believers. Regarding Elijah, after being taken up into heaven, not the third heaven, but the second heaven-the sky, he would have found himself in Paradise which at that time was part of Hades. The same is true of Enoch. The third heaven - the throne room of God was not open to any member of the human race until Jesus went to the cross.
Peter, not understanding that Jesus' mission was to go to the cross to die for the sins of the world began to rebuke Jesus. He couldn't understand how the Messiah could die at the hands of the religious leaders. Therefore, Satan sought to use Peter to keep Jesus from the cross. Satan had earlier tried to get Jesus to take a shortcut (Matt 4:8-10) by bypassing the cross and accepting Satan's offer of the kingdom. The cross had to come before the crown. Peter didn't understand this, but Satan did. Therefore, Jesus directly addressed Satan when He said to Peter ''Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.'' (Matt 16:23).
Jesus Christ is the God-Man. He is in hypostatic union. He is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. At the moment of the virgin birth of His humanity He also became true humanity. During His First advent, Jesus laid aside the independent use of His deity in keeping with the Father's plan for the incarnation. Therefore, as man, Jesus could choose not to use the atttributes of His deity, which is why He could be ignorant about certain things.
Jesus, though without a sin nature, could still be tempted from without. By the world, and by Satan.
As the time of His betrayal, arrest, and crucifixion approached, He became distressed to the point of sweating blood. This was sorrow and distress such as He had never known in His earthly life. He told the disciples that He was deeply grieved, to the point of death (Matt 26:38). He knew that when the sins of the world were poured out on Him during the period of 12 noon to 3 PM., His fellowship with God the Father was going to be broken (Matt 27:46). Something which in all of eternity had never happened. And that was agonizing to Him. In addition, the thought of coming into contact with the sins of the world was repugnant to Him even though that is why He came into the world (2 Cor 5:21). In His moment of weakness, an angel from heaven appeared to Him to strengthen Him (Luke 22:43).
Yes, Jesus prayed that the cup He was to drink from could pass away, but He said to the Father, 'Your will be done' (Luke 22:42).
To what extent Satan pressured Jesus at this time, we can't know this side of heaven.
Your issues with the equality of Jesus Christ with the Father stem from not understanding the hypostatic union and Kenosis of Jesus Christ. I have gone into great detail about this on another thread a few months ago. You can research those terms. I'm not going to take the time to go into them here.
The gospel of John was not written 70 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. It is dated between 85 and 95 A.D. Some scholars have recently suggested an earlier date between 50 and 70 A.D. Skeptics like to give the gospels a late date in order to discredit them.
Before Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world and access into the third heaven was open to believers as signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple, no believer went to heaven, but instead went to the Paradise side of Hades. Since the cross, heaven is now open to all believers. Regarding Elijah, after being taken up into heaven, not the third heaven, but the second heaven-the sky, he would have found himself in Paradise which at that time was part of Hades. The same is true of Enoch. The third heaven - the throne room of God was not open to any member of the human race until Jesus went to the cross.
Very excellent work buddy! I have to run right now...and I will respond to ALL OF THIS when I can...(hopefully tomorrow) but real quick...can you tell me where in scripture, in the Old Testament or New Testament that it mentions the 3rd and 2nd heavens...and where in scripture it says that this is where the other two went (Enoch and Elijah)? Or if it is not in scripture...which document and which author came up with this?
(BTW, right before you posted, I responded a bit to your last post!)
That is some excellent work my friend. One of the key phrases in it that is important is that we cannot "prove or disprove." Nonetheless I will study this information in detail...and get back to you on it. Not to argue, but just to discuss.
Personally, I have more of an issue with Paul's conversion, for the reasons I've stated in other posts (as well as the contradictions in the conversion account) than Paul's teachings. It is POSSIBLE that his dogma could be construed as not being far off the mark...though some things are simply wrong...like the idea that the stars are of a different nature than the sun...though we could probably explain that away too. The Gospel of Grace concepts seem to omit some very important things...and in my opinion, tend to lead people in the wrong direction. Also, like I said, I think he was not the greatest communicator. There is some question whether Paul wrote all those books too, when you look into it..and it is DEFINITELY known that no one really knows who wrote Hebrews...so the Bible as it is COMPILED contains a lie in that Hebrews is attributed to Paul.
There is an aspect of Acts that is theologically wrong, which I will get into after your response to the other post...(but of course that book was supposedly written by Luke).
I may not be online for a bit....but I will try tomorrow to be here!
God Bless you and have a good night!
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the Bible does not attribute Hebrews to Paul. The authorship is unknown but it had to be one of the apostles or someone closely associated with one of the apostles.
And there is nothing theologically wrong with Acts. Acts is about the history of the early church. It is not an epistle which contains Church-age doctrines.
Paul did not say that the stars are of a different nature than the sun (1 Cor 15:41). He said this ---> 'There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.'
This is simply a reference to the fact that each star has its own glory. Some stars shine more brightly than others. The sun, from our perspective shines more brightly than the other stars. In that verse and in the surrounding passage the subject is resurrection. Paul compared the differences between the glory and splendor of earthly bodies and heavenly bodies (v.40) to the difference between a natural body and a resurrected body. In Daniel 12:3 resurrected saints are compared to stars.
If you think that grace leads people in the wrong direction than that suggests legalistic tendencies.
And no, there are no contradictions in the conversion process described in Acts. But I'll get into that in another post. I'm too tired to continue right now.
And Paul did in fact write the books that are attributed to him.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-29-2011 at 09:06 PM..
Very excellent work buddy! I have to run right now...and I will respond to ALL OF THIS when I can...(hopefully tomorrow) but real quick...can you tell me where in scripture, in the Old Testament or New Testament that it mentions the 3rd and 2nd heavens...and where in scripture it says that this is where the other two went (Enoch and Elijah)? Or if it is not in scripture...which document and which author came up with this?
(BTW, right before you posted, I responded a bit to your last post!)
The first heaven is the band of atmosphere which surrounds the earth (1 Kings 14:11).
The second heaven is the stellar universe (Deut 4:19).
The third heaven is the throne room of God. It is where Paradise is now located (2 Cor 12:2-4, Eph 4:10).
As for Enoch and Elijah, it is a matter of deduction. Since no member of the human race was allowed into heaven until the cross and the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, all believers went to the Paradise side of Hades. Unless Enoch and Elijah were somehow exceptions, they had to have gone to what in the Old Testament is called Sheol. Hades in the Greek. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him that day in Paradise (Luke 23:43).
That's all for tonight. I'm too tired to continue.
The problem is...that this book (2 Peter) is considered a forgery by just about all scholars..and it is known that Peter didn't write it...or at least not the same person that wrote 1 Peter. Sounds like scare tactics...
PS 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.PS 12:7 You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation for ever.
Who am I to believe, you or God? I do not think God is so powerless and unable to have His own Word be written down and bundled together as it has been and as it is today. Men who think otherwise can not hear the Spirit and can not reason properly. Dispite the many translations, all have the seed of Truth to save and to learn from.
Peter, not understanding that Jesus' mission was to go to the cross to die for the sins of the world began to rebuke Jesus. He couldn't understand how the Messiah could die at the hands of the religious leaders. Therefore, Satan sought to use Peter to keep Jesus from the cross. Satan had earlier tried to get Jesus to take a shortcut (Matt 4:8-10) by bypassing the cross and accepting Satan's offer of the kingdom. The cross had to come before the crown. Peter didn't understand this, but Satan did. Therefore, Jesus directly addressed Satan when He said to Peter ''Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's.'' (Matt 16:23).
Jesus Christ is the God-Man. He is in hypostatic union. He is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. At the moment of the virgin birth of His humanity He also became true humanity. During His First advent, Jesus laid aside the independent use of His deity in keeping with the Father's plan for the incarnation. Therefore, as man, Jesus could choose not to use the atttributes of His deity, which is why He could be ignorant about certain things.
Jesus, though without a sin nature, could still be tempted from without. By the world, and by Satan.
As the time of His betrayal, arrest, and crucifixion approached, He became distressed to the point of sweating blood. This was sorrow and distress such as He had never known in His earthly life. He told the disciples that He was deeply grieved, to the point of death (Matt 26:38). He knew that when the sins of the world were poured out on Him during the period of 12 noon to 3 PM., His fellowship with God the Father was going to be broken (Matt 27:46). Something which in all of eternity had never happened. And that was agonizing to Him. In addition, the thought of coming into contact with the sins of the world was repugnant to Him even though that is why He came into the world (2 Cor 5:21). In His moment of weakness, an angel from heaven appeared to Him to strengthen Him (Luke 22:43).
Yes, Jesus prayed that the cup He was to drink from could pass away, but He said to the Father, 'Your will be done' (Luke 22:42).
To what extent Satan pressured Jesus at this time, we can't know this side of heaven.
Your issues with the equality of Jesus Christ with the Father stem from not understanding the hypostatic union and Kenosis of Jesus Christ. I have gone into great detail about this on another thread a few months ago. You can research those terms. I'm not going to take the time to go into them here.
The gospel of John was not written 70 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. It is dated between 85 and 95 A.D. Some scholars have recently suggested an earlier date between 50 and 70 A.D. Skeptics like to give the gospels a late date in order to discredit them.
Before Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the world and access into the third heaven was open to believers as signified by the tearing of the veil in the temple, no believer went to heaven, but instead went to the Paradise side of Hades. Since the cross, heaven is now open to all believers. Regarding Elijah, after being taken up into heaven, not the third heaven, but the second heaven-the sky, he would have found himself in Paradise which at that time was part of Hades. The same is true of Enoch. The third heaven - the throne room of God was not open to any member of the human race until Jesus went to the cross.
Correction: I meant to say the first heaven which is the sky - the atmosphere.
PS 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.PS 12:7 You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation for ever.
Who am I to believe, you or God? I do not think God is so powerless and unable to have His own Word be written down and bundled together as it has been and as it is today. Men who think otherwise can not hear the Spirit and can not reason properly. Dispite the many translations, all have the seed of Truth to save and to learn from.
This is true. God's word has been preserved down through history.
This is true. God's word has been preserved down through history.
Ok, well how do we purify the different accounts of who was at the empty tomb that are in the various Gospels?
A boy in one case, two men in another, two angels in another...and all with completely different descriptions. The accounts of what happened in many of the details actually differ...
If a judge was told differing details about an account...should he believe it as truth? You cannot accept all of them and still call it "truth." And why should not God (the ultimate judge) not be held to absolutely the highest standard?
The first heaven is the band of atmosphere which surrounds the earth (1 Kings 14:11).
The second heaven is the stellar universe (Deut 4:19).
The third heaven is the throne room of God. It is where Paradise is now located (2 Cor 12:2-4, Eph 4:10).
As for Enoch and Elijah, it is a matter of deduction. Since no member of the human race was allowed into heaven until the cross and the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, all believers went to the Paradise side of Hades. Unless Enoch and Elijah were somehow exceptions, they had to have gone to what in the Old Testament is called Sheol. Hades in the Greek. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him that day in Paradise (Luke 23:43).
That's all for tonight. I'm too tired to continue.
1 Kings 14:11 reads: "11Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it."
It says nothing about distinguishing one heaven from another.
Deuteronomy 4:19 reads: "19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven."
The references here are HEAVEN, ALL THE HOST OF HEAVEN, and THE WHOLE HEAVEN. It says nothing about a second heaven, and it says nothing saying that Enoch or Elijah did not in fact go to heaven to be with God. You are suggesting that Enoch and Elijah were just floating around in the void of space? "All the host of heaven" is regarding the heavenly host..the spiritual realm...and not just the stars in space.
It is not therefore necessary to get into your third reference. There is nothing that says that there are different heavens that they went to, and that Enoch or Elijah did not go to the "throne room of God." And why shouldn't they go there?
And regarding the underlined parts...your logic is flawed and it is not a matter of deduction. This is the entire part which I pointed out, that I asked you to comment on, which contradicts the OT scriptures that specifically say that Enoch and Elijah ascended into heaven. Therefore you cannot use that same scripture I am questioning to deduce anything!! Surely you must know this. The challenge is to show how it is not a contradiction of OT scripture, and you have failed to do so.
I do have an explanation however, that would make it not a contradiction, and it's the only explanation that makes sense.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 09-30-2011 at 01:06 PM..
PS 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.PS 12:7 You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation for ever.
Who am I to believe, you or God? I do not think God is so powerless and unable to have His own Word be written down and bundled together as it has been and as it is today. Men who think otherwise can not hear the Spirit and can not reason properly. Dispite the many translations, all have the seed of Truth to save and to learn from.
Which bible - the Catholics' or the Protestants'? Which translation?
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