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1 Kings 14:11 reads: "11Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it."
It says nothing about distinguishing one heaven from another.
Deuteronomy 4:19 reads: "19And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven."
The references here are HEAVEN, ALL THE HOST OF HEAVEN, and THE WHOLE HEAVEN. It says nothing about a second heaven, and it says nothing saying that Enoch or Elijah did not in fact go to heaven to be with God. You are suggesting that Enoch and Elijah were just floating around in the void of space? "All the host of heaven" is regarding the heavenly host..the spiritual realm...and not just the stars in space.
It is not therefore necessary to get into your third reference. There is nothing that says that there are different heavens that they went to, and that Enoch or Elijah did not go to the "throne room of God." And why shouldn't they go there?
And regarding the underlined parts...your logic is flawed and it is not a matter of deduction. This is the entire part which I pointed out, that I asked you to comment on, which contradicts the OT scriptures that specifically say that Enoch and Elijah ascended into heaven. Therefore you cannot use that same scripture I am questioning to deduce anything!! Surely you must know this. The challenge is to show how it is not a contradiction of OT scripture, and you have failed to do so.
I do have an explanation however, that would make it not a contradiction, and it's the only explanation that makes sense.
1 Kings 14:11 '"Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs will eat. And he who dies in the field the birds of the heavens will eat; for the LORD has spoken it." Go here and see the verse in the Hebrew ---> 1 Kings 14:11 Biblos Interlinear Bible Birds fly in the atmosphere - the first heaven. Since a third heaven is mentioned in 2 Cor 12:2-4, that means there is a first and a second heaven. The first heaven (shamayim) is the atmosphere.
Deuteronomy 4:19 speaks of the sun, the moon, and the stars. This is the second heaven - the stellar universe.
2 Cor 12:2 'I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3] And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows 4] was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Those are the three heavens.
Elijah and Enoch did not go to the second heaven. I had meant to say the first heaven and pointed that out in a different post when I realized what I wrote. Enoch is not said to have gone to heaven. Only that he was taken. Elijah went up into the air - the first heaven. No one had access to the third heaven until Jesus went to the cross. I pointed that out. After having been taken up into the air, he would have then gone to Sheol. There are those who say that he was only transported to a different location on earth where he lived until his death.
Just as no one had access to the Holy of holies in the tabernacle, and later the temple, except for the high priest, and then only once a year, no one had access into the true holy of holies which is in the third heaven until Jesus Christ had paid for our sins. Jesus Christ is our great high priest. And when He died, the veil in the temple which had separated the holy of holies from the rest of the temple was torn from top to bottom by God Himself which signified that the third heaven was now accessable for believers who have died.
Until Christ went to the cross, no member of the human race had access to the throneroom of God - the third heaven.
"1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."
This is in perfect alignment with what the scriptures say. Just because someone claims it isn't inspired, even if they have a degree, doesn't mean what they say is valid or accurate.
Are there people right now scoffing at the second coming of Christ? Yes
Are there people attacking/discrediting the creation (origin of man) and flood account (Noah's flood) with an evolution religion? Yes
Do both Peter and Paul say longsuffering with Christ is salvation through grace by faith? Yes
There is no contradiction with the scripture. There are plenty of Bible "scholars" that do accept Peter's writings. All scripture has two witnesses as all of this does. The liberal scholars are simply wrong.
It does say people wrestle with it to their own destruction.
Look up the phrase "Paul to the Hebrews" and you will get 477,000 results mentioning "The Epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews." My question is...which Bibles actually DON'T claim that he wrote it?
The part in ACTS that is theologically wrong is the part where a Jewish priest who believed in Christ is overcome by a demon, and the demon says "Paul I know...and Jesus I know...but who are ye?" and then the demon completely overcomes and harms this man...well, this goes directly against the theology of Christ, who said that we would have power over "all evil spirits" and to rejoice, because those whose names are written in heaven (who love and follow the Lord) will have this power. This part in Acts is meant to create fear...whereas Christ came to abolish that fear and give us all power over evil. The fact that people think you need a priest to come and exorcise an evil spirit shows the unfortunate result of this part of Acts..and following this erroneous theology, which only serves to exalt Paul to the level of Jesus, while taking away part of the gift that Jesus meant for us to have..which is to NEVER FEAR...only believe.
Acts has many other problems too.
Not everyone is given the ability to decern evil spirits and to cast them out. That Priest you mentioned went on his own in tried to cast out demons by Pauls belief in Jesus, not by any authority given by Christ or he would have succeeded.
Even in the church not every one has authority to do anything that they want to do.
1COR 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1COR 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1COR 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1COR 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1COR 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.
1COR 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1COR 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? NO, NO, NO
The Scriptures of Acts and Peter 2 or any thing that Paul wrote are not the problem. Have you considered that your understanding of matters are the problem. You are only presenting arguements that divide the unlearned because you have yet to learn.
We are in agreement that Jesus had the temptation from Satan to pray that the crucifixion would not happen.
Jesus never had any intention of not fulfilling the Father's will.
Mark 14:35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36]'And He was saying, ''Abba! Father! All things are possible for thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt.''
And again, I will paraphrase a portion of the Bible Knowledge Commentary concerning Mark 14:35.
Jesus made a request that if it were possible, that the hour might pass from Him. The word 'if' in verse 35 is in the first class condition which means that it was possible if the Father was willing to grant His request. The only issue was if it was God the Father's will to grant His request ---Luke 22:42 ''Father if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done.''
Jesus' main concern was that in drinking the cup He must drink, His relationship with the Father would be disrupted --Mark 15:34 '...''My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?''
Jesus' human will was distinct from the Father's will but was never in opposition to it. He acknowledged that the answer to His request was in accordance to the Father's will, rather than His own. He was resolute in submitting to the Father's will for Him to go to the cross, despite His deep distress.
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As far as "not understanding the hypostatic union," well actually i do understand that concept all too well...and I do believe that can happen, and that it was the case with Jesus for most of the time...but that union can be temporarily broken and then re-established.
No, you do not understand the hypostatic union. Once Jesus came into the world through the virgin birth, He was in permanent hypostatic union. The two natures --His deity and His humanity were and are united in one Person without any mixing of the attributes of each nature. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe.
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You wrote: "Yes, Jesus prayed that the cup He was to drink from could pass away, but He said to the Father, 'Your will be done' (Luke 22:42).
To what extent Satan pressured Jesus at this time, we can't know this side of heaven."
The fact that Jesus actually PRAYED means he wasn't just tempted, but took action. He in fact sinned if he prayed this, if only momentarily. We know that he knew that he was meant to be crucified, unless we take those OT scriptures that supposedly are regarding this to mean something else.
Jesus did not sin. Had Jesus sinned in any way at any time during His life, He would not have been qualified to go to the cross. Jesus was never in opposition to the Father's will. He simply prayed that if the cup He was to drink could pass away, that it be so. But He knew that it couldn't and He said to the Father 'not My will, but Your will be done.'
Again, ANY sin committed by Jesus would have disqualified Him from going to the cross and dying for the sins of the world.
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Now, out of fear of not believing he was God and what that means about your soul, you will most likely respond angrily at this, and without due logic...or maybe you won't respond that way. But I have overcome fear the same way Jesus did because I have truly followed him, and I have known the true alchemical path of transformation of the soul
Alchemichal path of transformation of the soul? It seems you are into some kind of New Age nonsense.
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. Jesus made the right decision ultimately, because he most desired to do the Father's will...but his act of PRAYING was momentarily in error...the same way that even thinking about committing adultery is the same as doing it. Even praying for a moment that it would pass was the same as Jesus momentarily giving into the temptation. His reaction to Peter further establishes this.
Jesus was not in error in praying to the Father. And comparing prayer to thinking about adultery is absurd.
The full extent of what Jesus prayed is not recorded. He most likely prayed to be strengthened since an angel from heaven appeared to Him to strengthen Him.
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The Gospel of John was written probably 50-60 years after. You are most likely right. Still way too long after the fact...since for something so important, you would think that someone would write it down much sooner, rather than risk the possibility of dying before they had the chance.
No, it was not way too long after the fact. It was still within the lifetime of eyewitnesses of Jesus. You discount the fact that John wrote under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. He wrote His gospel account when it was time to do so.
Actually...when you look into it, it hasn't. When you study the history of the New Testament, you find that all we have is copies of copies of copies of copies of the originals...and with over 30,000 different readings that were found. Various blessed attempts have been made, by very valiant individuals, over the centuries to re-create the "original superior text." Some of these efforts would last over 20 years at a time. Some of them failed completely...and some of them did a lot of good. But it is known for a fact that intentional changes were made. There are footnotes on ancient manuscripts found that say things to the effect of "you fool!! Leave the original text intact!!"
You sound more like a liberal critic of the school of higher criticism than you do a believer.
I have looked into it, and I am telling you that the word of God has been preserved. There are many thousands of manuscript copies, in various stages of completion. Many are mere fragments. But it is that abundance of copies which allows the science of Textual Criticism to prove that the Bible has been faithfully preserved. That does not mean that there are not errors in the manuscript copies (most are minor). And it does not mean that there are no variations in the manuscripts. But it is a comparison of the many manuscript copies which establish the reliability of the Bible. No error in the manuscript copies change any point of doctrine. And no insertions such as the Johannine Comma are in opposition to what the Bible teaches.
God's message to man has been faithfully preserved.
I believe Peter, as well as most all the church, was decieved by Paul. Yahushua said that even the very elect could be decieved, in Matthew chapter 24. Why do I believe this?
Paul, after three years, finally goes for a visit to the disciples, and Peter tells Paul, ok, just tell the gentiles all they have to do is refrain from eating food that has been sacrificed to idols and refrain from sexual sin. What does Paul do? He tells us in 1 Corinthians chapter 8 that it's ok to eat food offered to idols. Hunh? Yahushua Himself tells us in Revelation it's not ok and it's a very serious sin.
Acts 15:20
Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.
Acts 21:25
“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.â€
1 Corinthians 8:1 (Paul)
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge†about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
*Now, who did Yahushua say He was going to build His church with? Was it Paul or Peter? And just in case you might think Yahushua backs Paul...
Revelation 2:14
“But I have a few complaints against you. You tolerate some among you whose teaching is like that of Balaam, who showed Balak how to trip up the people of Israel. He taught them to sin by eating food offered to idols and by committing sexual sin.
Revelation 2:20
“But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols.
Now, if you continue to listen to Paul after what I just showed you, you have some serious problems.
So you see, Paul, convinces and decieves Peter and the rest of the disciples to stray from the Messiah's great commision, and then Paul doesn't even listen to Peter's advise. What is the truth? Is there more than one gospel - to the jews and to the gentiles?
18 Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Pay very close attention to that Great Commission right there. Who is Yahushua speaking to? The Jews. Who are they supposed to teach too? The Gentiles. What are the gentiles supposed to do? The same exact thing as the jews.
We are to stop sinning. Get water baptized (after that, and only after that, do we get filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again). And as Yahushua taught, were supposed to obey the Ten Commandments, in which He himself magnified to the extreme.
So you mean to tell me, layman, pastor, christian, disciple of Yahushua the Messiah,... that your going to go with Paul after knowing what I've just showed you?
Did I just twist anything to my own destruction, or am I simply obeying the Messiah?
Please, show me how I'm twisting something to my own destruction... PLEASE!!!
I am 100% confident that when I go before Elohim on judgement day, He's not going to rebuke me for listening and obeying the Messiah. I believe it's Him who's revealed this to me accually, and it's a wonderfull blessing to know this.
The people who put the different books of the "Bible" together, are also the same exact ones who murdered our brothers and sisters for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath. Think about it. Because they didn't honor the "Sun-Day" (venerable day of the sun), they were murdered and burned to death.
The "Bible" is a collection of many books and letters, which even leaves out Enoch for crying out loud. Enoch was one of the most widely read books of the church. Yahushua and all the Apostles read Enoch.
Wow, now I'm going off. But think about what I just revealed to you. It's the truth.
Revelation 2 (Yahushua's commendation)
You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars.
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Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses
Great work O Mighty Ducky!!
Here you make it clear, by being in agreement with a poster who calls Paul a deceiver, that you too think that Paul was a false apostle. I have little patience with people who claim to be believers but who attack the word of God.
As for O-Ducky, as I recall, I explained his error concerning food being offered to idols after he made an issue out of it some time back, and he disappeared from the forum for a while. Now he's back spewing the same nonsense.
Why would Elijah need to restore everything if the disciples got it right.Because they didn't.They had to prove there love by keeping the commandments that Jesus laid out just as people today need to.They couldn't do it because they didn't understand. I do.Jesus sent me.
I am the bread of life.
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and never die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood possesses eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is honest drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the Lord who sent me has life so too do I have life because of the Lord, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
"The works I do in my Fathers name bear witness for me".
"The one who comes from above is above all. The one who belongs to the world thinks like the world and speaks in a worldly way. But the one who comes from heaven . He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. Whoever does accept his testimony certifies that God is truthful. For the One whom God sent speaks the words of God. His gift of the spirit is not rationed.
The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
Psalms;
"The just mans mouth speaks wisdom, and his tongue does what is right.31The law of his God is in his heart an he will never stumble.
Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord.
I remember your name in the night, O Lord, and keep your law.
Let your mercy come to me, that I may live; for your law is my delight.
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is the truth.
"I long for your salvation, O Lord, and your law is my joy".
I do nothing on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I’m not seeking my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I only say what the Lord has taught me.
For the one who sent me is with me. He has not deserted me, because I always do what pleases him.
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Lord except through me.
If you know me, then you will also know my Father
Whoever has seen me has seen the Lord who sent me".Jesus and I are One with the Father.
You sound more like a liberal critic of the school of higher criticism than you do a believer.
I have looked into it, and I am telling you that the word of God has been preserved. There are many thousands of manuscript copies, in various stages of completion. Many are mere fragments. But it is that abundance of copies which allows the science of Textual Criticism to prove that the Bible has been faithfully preserved. That does not mean that there are not errors in the manuscript copies (most are minor). And it does not mean that there are no variations in the manuscripts. But it is a comparison of the many manuscript copies which establish the reliability of the Bible. No error in the manuscript copies change any point of doctrine. And no insertions such as the Johannine Comma are in opposition to what the Bible teaches.
God's message to man has been faithfully preserved.
I believe Peter, as well as most all the church, was decieved by Paul. Yahushua said that even the very elect could be decieved, in Matthew chapter 24. Why do I believe this?
Paul, after three years, finally goes for a visit to the disciples, and Peter tells Paul, ok, just tell the gentiles all they have to do is refrain from eating food that has been sacrificed to idols and refrain from sexual sin. What does Paul do? He tells us in 1 Corinthians chapter 8 that it's ok to eat food offered to idols. Hunh? Yahushua Himself tells us in Revelation it's not ok and it's a very serious sin.
Acts 15:20
Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.
Acts 21:25
“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”
1 Corinthians 8:1 (Paul)
Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
*Now, who did Yahushua say He was going to build His church with? Was it Paul or Peter? And just in case you might think Yahushua backs Paul...
Revelation 2:14
“But I have a few complaints against you. You tolerate some among you whose teaching is like that of Balaam, who showed Balak how to trip up the people of Israel. He taught them to sin by eating food offered to idols and by committing sexual sin.
Revelation 2:20
“But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols.
Now, if you continue to listen to Paul after what I just showed you, you have some serious problems.
So you see, Paul, convinces and decieves Peter and the rest of the disciples to stray from the Messiah's great commision, and then Paul doesn't even listen to Peter's advise. What is the truth? Is there more than one gospel - to the jews and to the gentiles?
18 Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Pay very close attention to that Great Commission right there. Who is Yahushua speaking to? The Jews. Who are they supposed to teach too? The Gentiles. What are the gentiles supposed to do? The same exact thing as the jews.
We are to stop sinning. Get water baptized (after that, and only after that, do we get filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again). And as Yahushua taught, were supposed to obey the Ten Commandments, in which He himself magnified to the extreme.
So you mean to tell me, layman, pastor, christian, disciple of Yahushua the Messiah,... that your going to go with Paul after knowing what I've just showed you?
Did I just twist anything to my own destruction, or am I simply obeying the Messiah?
Please, show me how I'm twisting something to my own destruction... PLEASE!!!
I am 100% confident that when I go before Elohim on judgement day, He's not going to rebuke me for listening and obeying the Messiah. I believe it's Him who's revealed this to me accually, and it's a wonderfull blessing to know this.
The people who put the different books of the "Bible" together, are also the same exact ones who murdered our brothers and sisters for keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath. Think about it. Because they didn't honor the "Sun-Day" (venerable day of the sun), they were murdered and burned to death.
The "Bible" is a collection of many books and letters, which even leaves out Enoch for crying out loud. Enoch was one of the most widely read books of the church. Yahushua and all the Apostles read Enoch.
Wow, now I'm going off. But think about what I just revealed to you. It's the truth.
Revelation 2 (Yahushua's commendation)
You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars.
First, Mike, please tell me how you made me leave the forum because of something you posted, which you assumed was why.
Next, please show me how those passages from Peter and Yahushua say that only weak Christians shouldn't eat it. It's as clear as it can be, that it's flat out sin. For you to say any different shows your blindness publicly. You make a public display of your brainwashed mind and your closed eyes.
Ok, could someone please post the letter that Peter sent with Paul to the gentile believers. I can't from this pc or I would. I've already posted what should be enough of it to prove that it plainly says to "not eat food offered to idols"... period. It's a shame I have to say this but we'll leave the words of the Messiah in Revelation out of this since they will be twisted. The letter to the gentiles is untwistable so lets just keep it at that. Then, once you see the truth there, maybe you'll see the truth in the warning of the Messiah. After the letter is posted I have one simple question. Is it ok to eat food offered to idols? It's simple. Read the letter, and tell me yes or no, is it ok in any case, for anyone, to eat food that they know was offered to an idol?
and... what is the definition of pride
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