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Where is your smoking gun? Where is the archaeological evidence; an old manuscript, peice of papyra, or some stone etching or petroglyph where a christian leader in the first few centuries admits to really worshiping a pagan God and is deceiving people? I have debated people like you many times, but I have never gotten that.
You seem to believe that you are debating a member of a so-called "Sacred Name Movement" group. You are wrong! I am not affiliated with nor am I a member of any of these groups. In fact, I am in disagreement with a lot of what these groups teach. One of the most prominent disagreements that I have with these groups is that I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and was a creator or a co-creator with His and our Father Yahweh in the beginning.
I have never accused anyone here of worshiping Zeus.
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Then why did you sy that Jesus is really Zeus? And why do you insist on pronouncing Jesus's name the way you write and say it? Why did you say that the name Jesus is really the name Zeus?
I am merely pointing out how the translator's substituted our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name and His son's name for inferior names/titles.
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And I refuted this with evidence, there is no evidence that the Bible has ever been "corrupted."
FYI, I am not a Messianic in that I mix Jewish practices with that of the Christians. Yahshua parabolically said that we are to beware of the leavening (meaning 'teaching') of the Jews. I am also not a Christian. In fact, I am not affiliated with any so-called "Sacred Name Movement" group as cmforte deceptively believes.
I never said you were. But you think along the same lines.
Originally Posted by cmforte Where is your smoking gun? Where is the archaeological evidence; an old manuscript, peice of papyra, or some stone etching or petroglyph where a christian leader in the first few centuries admits to really worshiping a pagan God and is deceiving people? I have debated people like you many times, but I have never gotten that.
Quote:
You seem to believe that you are debating a member of a so-called "Sacred Name Movement" group. You are wrong! I am not affiliated with nor am I a member of any of these groups. In fact, I am in disagreement with a lot of what these groups teach. One of the most prominent disagreements that I have with these groups is that I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and was a creator or a co-creator with His and our Father Yahweh in the beginning.
You seem to believe that you are debating a member of a so-called "Sacred Name Movement" group. You are wrong! I am not affiliated with nor am I a member of any of these groups. In fact, I am in disagreement with a lot of what these groups teach. One of the most prominent disagreements that I have with these groups is that I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and was a creator or a co-creator with His and our Father Yahweh in the beginning.
Jesus was before Abraham in the sense that he was greater than Abraham not because he physically preexisted.
That's not what the passage says
John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
The Jews questioned Jesus' age saying "you are not yet fifty years old". This is clearly referencing his age."How could you/Jesus see Abraham as he existed thousands of years before you" in other words... "He existed before you did"!
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Before Abraham was/existed, Jesus existed. He said he was the I AM talking to Moses in the burning bush.The "I AM" identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. YHWH God.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Verse 59 confirms this is exactly what it meant. Stoning was the penalty for Blasphemy under the Law. Outside of this they would have been committing MURDER.
The Lord Jesus did indeed proclaim himself greater than Moses. He proclaimed himself to be YHWH God in the flesh! YHWH Son not YHWH Father, but "I and my Father are one" the Lord Jesus says.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 05-24-2012 at 10:37 AM..
The context of Joh. 8:58 is Jesus’ dialogue with the Jews concerning Abraham. As far as the Jews were concerned, Abraham was greater than all of them. In John 8:53, the Jews had asked Jesus if he claimed to be greater than Abraham. Jesus' answered them at John 8:58. Jesus answer was, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus was “before” Abraham in this sense that he was “before” him in terms of greater in importance. Jesus was the promised seed was he not?
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Originally Posted by Mikelee81
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
The Jews questioned Jesus' age saying "you are not yet fifty years old". This is clearly referencing his age."How could you/Jesus see Abraham as he existed thousands of years before you" in other words... "He existed before you did"!
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Before Abraham was/existed, Jesus existed. He said he was the I AM talking to Moses in the burning bush.The "I AM" identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. YHWH God.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Verse 59 confirms this is exactly what it meant. Stoning was the penalty for Blasphemy under the Law. Outside of this they would have been committing MURDER.
The Lord Jesus did indeed proclaim himself greater than Moses. He proclaimed himself to be YHWH God in the flesh! YHWH Son not YHWH Father, but "I and my Father are one" the Lord Jesus says.
Mike you should pay little more attention to what Jesus actually said rather than what the Jews thought he said. Verse 56 as translated in the King James Version, Jesus said the following: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ. The Jews misinterpreted Jesus’ statement, verse 57 saying, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
The context of Joh. 8:58 is Jesus’ dialogue with the Jews concerning Abraham. As far as the Jews were concerned, Abraham was greater than all of them. In John 8:53, the Jews had asked Jesus if he claimed to be greater than Abraham. Jesus' answered them at John 8:58. Jesus answer was, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus was “before” Abraham in this sense that he was “before” him in terms of greater in importance. Jesus was the promised seed was he not?
Mike you should pay little more attention to what Jesus actually said rather than what the Jews thought he said. Verse 56 as translated in the King James Version, Jesus said the following: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ. The Jews misinterpreted Jesus’ statement, verse 57 saying, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Wrong
"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" John 8:57 KJV
The passage was referring to Jesus Christ existing prior to the existence of Abraham. Jesus said he is the "I AM" - the one talking to Moses at the Burning bush.
Exodus 3:14-15
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Jesus is YHWH God - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.He is YHWH Son. Not YHWH Father, but the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father which are one in the Holy Spirit.
John 14:8-98 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
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